Talk:Hange Zoë

Gender
The infamous "skirt" illustration can be found (in low resolution) at http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/mstkkt-shingeki/imgs/4/b/4b07005f.jpg (there's also a close-up at http://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/k/kajika_eps/20130504/20130504234013.gif) and is part of a joke preview for Volume 6 of the manga, depicting how Hanji views her/his relationship with the Titans. It does not take place in-world (as the presence of the truck attests) and part of the joke is the ambiguity surrounding Hanji's gender (it's a typically Japanese gender-confusion joke suggesting that Hanji the Man becomes Hanji the Damsel in Distress when Titansd are involved). There is no in-world illustration of Hanji in civvies, and clearly this is not intended as backtracking: Word of God says Hanji's sex is ambiguous, and thus Hanji's sex is ambiguous, regardless of what we'd all (or at least I'd...) like it to be.

Mind you, I'm not averse to maintaining the third person feminine pronouns in the article, especially since it looks like the anime staff will be making Hanji a woman in their adaptation. But we really ought to acknowledge somewhere that in the original manga the topic is very much open for debate.

220.157.194.219 14:04, May 16, 2013 (UTC)Enamelthyst

The trivia makes no sense either, give me a trustworhty link with the interview and we'll decide after that. For now I'm removing all these ambiguous things >_>

Actually, the way we have it now ("Female (Anime)") is probably OK: not confusing, but not misleadingly authoritative-sounding. The "interview" isn't really: it all stems from a Q&A session with fans, which can be found archived at http://blog.livedoor.jp/isayamahazime/archives/4388712.html. (the question in, er, question is down towards the end), but it's grown into quite the legend online: if you check http://shingeki-kyojin.com/archives/25745454.html you will see "性別：??" ("Gender: ??") and a bit of Japanese knowledge (or Google Translate) will reveal that the latter portion of the article basically says that most people think Hanji's a woman, but it's not entirely clear. It's also referenced in the Wikipedia article at http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/進撃の巨人 (under "ハンジ・ゾエ"). Now you can find a rather defensive rebuttal of the whole controversy (in English!) at http://papermoon2.tumblr.com/post/49396124889/wow-okay-then-people-are-really-taking-that-out, but I'm disinclined to fully agree with this person based on the fact that "Isayama draws Hanji in her civilian clothes" isn't actually what Isayama did: he was drawing "her" in a fictional reality existing only as a joke. So his original answer might be a troll, or the gag next volume preview might be a troll, or (which is most likely) they are both trolls, and only Isayama knows what Hanji's "true" gender is meant to be. Thus, as far as I'm concerned, the question is still open, and until Isayama makes himself clear (or Hanji changes outfits in the manga) it is premature to commit to a gender for the manga version of the character.

220.157.194.219 16:56, May 16, 2013 (UTC)Enamelthyst

Thanks a lot for all those references! After reading all of this I'd say it's to early to indeed confirm her as female or male in the manga. Though I would refrain to use the word ambiguous since it can also mean both female and male rather than "unknown"..

So, what do the admins think about this?

Thinking back into the past, this all started when someone said Hanji's gender was ambiguous, which I do not believe without evidence. No proof, other than what eyes can see and I think Hanji's a girl. Besides, if Isayama really did pull these "ambiguous" stunts like with Rico and Ymir, I have a lower opinion of him. If not, then all is well I suppose.

Jo4n (talk) 01:16, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, after doing some perverted reason, I can confirm Hanji Zoe is a girl, meaning my fanboism can continue *O*

If Hanji's article gets corrected to a gender-neutral state again, please consider using singular gender-neutral pronouns such as xe or ze; using "they" as a singular pronoun is leading contributors to write things like "they are" instead of "they is", and unless the new speculation about Hanji is that Hanji is a collective of many different discrete identities and should be addressed in the plural, it would be better practice, and more easily kept consistent to address Hanji in the singular.

If Hanji is to be labeled gender-neutral, I suggest we declare all other characters gender-neutral until otherwise specified (if Hanji's manner of speaking and appearance isn't enough to infer her as female, it's hardly fair to allow those things to allow us to infer genders for the other characters). I understand the point of view of the person who made the social-awareness note on the article page that I removed (please feel free to add it to the talk page!) and I am not trying to be hurtful or to erase anyone's identity; I just don't see the point in promoting an internet joke (which Hanji's gender has arguably become; the shingeki-kyojin site linked earlier is a fansite enjoying the richness of Shingeki's online culture) as fact on Hanji's article page.

I am open to hearing more from Isayama-sensei on the subject; however, in reading the manga (in Japanese, of course; as much as I appreciate the hard work and love scanlators put in to creating something that can be shared with a wider community, scanlations should not be treated as a primary source) I thought it was manifestly obvious from the way Hanji speaks that she is female, and I was surprised to discover it was in question at all.

Best regards!

-- very (talk) 23:52, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

"I suggest we declare all other characters gender-neutral until otherwise specified (if Hanji's manner of speaking and appearance isn't enough to infer her as female, it's hardly fair to allow those things to allow us to infer genders for the other characters)."

I mostly just want to address the "internet joke" and the fact that the author has never given Hanji gendered pronouns to begin with. When a character is specified gender-neutral by the author (or the gender is intentionally left ambiguous by the author) that it's important to respect that and not assign them a gender. It's not about not inferring things, it's about respecting the author's decisions about the character and also respecting marginalized trans* people who have so few characters to relate to. When you erase a character's gender-identity or lack thereof, you're harming real people who can relate to that character. Being trans* / non-binary is not just a Western culture thing, but has been present in many cultures around the world. Saying that it's an "internet creation" is false and hurtful.

On the subject of singular they pronouns,  "they are" is a proper and grammatically correct usage. It's a little unusual when a person is not used to it being used consistently for one person (in reality we use it all the time; "that driver was terrible! what were they thinking?), but the more we are exposed to something, the more familiar it becomes. "Hir" is a pronoun that assigns a person an identity, whereas "they" leaves the identity ambiguous. Since we haven't been given an actual identity, only "they are not x," hir pronouns are not technically correct.

24.17.188.66 01:04, June 12, 2013 (UTC) Eli

Gender identity itself is not a joke. When I say "internet joke", I am specifically referring to the fandom's treatment of Hanji's gender in general as "ohoho it's funny not to say, amirite?" I absolutely recognise and welcome a spectrum of identities. However, the part I am not sold on is that Hanji hirself is such a character. Hanji's treatment in canon is not unique to Hanji; there is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about it (Japanese doesn't use terms like "him" and "her" the same way English does when speaking about others, and one's own use of language and manner of speaking can and often is extremely gendered; a reader could read a page of dialogue without identified speakers and be able to get an idea of what gender, age, and "general personality" can be ascribed to each speaker just from the way they talk). I am not being hyperbolic or trying to make a point by saying we should rescind references to gender on other characters if we do so to Hanji. What I am saying is that there is nothing in the text that sets Hanji hirself apart, and that by doing so we're creating artificial divisions in the way we treat Hanji compared to the way we treat other characters, which is the part I personally find offensive.

The alteration to "it" a few days ago absolutely shocked and horrified me; that's appalling treatment for a sentient being. "They" is perfectly fine in theory, but has been accompanied by plural treatment (and often encourages plural use by people who are not familiar with "they" as a singular pronoun), which is why I feel something more obviously singular (and less confusing!) like "xe" or "ze" would serve the same purpose much more adroitly.

"Xe", "ze" and the like do not necessarily ascribe an identity; many people who do not describe themselves as male or female choose to use them instead, of course, but it certainly can be used to refer to people of unknown gender, or to speak about a person when the speaker doesn't want to ascribe a gender to that person.

(The page was edited while I was writing this out; sorry if my responses are a little repetitive and disjointed.)

Your example I suspect is a regional thing (it would never occur to say they in that situation, since only one person would have been driving the car), but if it's clear to the majority of users then that is the best solution. I often use "xie" myself (though I used "ze" here because it's more commonly used) because of the greater clarity of using a specifically singular pronoun; using "they" to refer to a single person (especially when paired with constructions like "they are" instead of "they is") can be confusing and cause ambiguity, especially when discussing events involving multiple people. This comes down to a style issue, however, and should probably be decided wiki-wide (along with things like American or British English, Oxford comma or no Oxford comma, etc etc), along with the dread decision of which sets of name translations to use (all of the official ones have their issues, imho, but I'll leave that discussion to others since I have no dog in that race :))

As a personal aside, I would be very happy and grateful to Isayama-sensei if Hanji is someone who does not ascribe hirself to the usual gender binary; as you have said, more representation, especially in popular media, is desperately needed and wanted!

Thank you so much for bringing the dialogue here to the talk page; I feel like we can have a productive discussion here instead of letting it spill into the article page, and I'm very pleased to have had the opportunity to talk with you.

Best regards!

-- very (talk) 01:27, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

ETA:

I just wanted to say what a relief it was to find that we're on the same page about this (genuine concern about gender identity instead of people making a "joke"; I admit that at first I was unsure if your comments about awareness of gender identity in the article were genuine or an attempt to be inflammatory, since they were made in the article itself and not in the talk page). Identifying Hanji's gender is not crucial to the thrust of the article (I'm avoiding saying it's not important, because it's an important part of anyone's identity, but hir history, actions, and concrete stats are really what the article is about). While I personally did not think there was any reason for confusion and thought that the "lawl Hanji's an it" movement was coming from a place of hurtful ignorance based on hearsay and telephone translations, there is absolutely no harm done in using neutral pronouns to refer to Hanji in particular, or to anyone else.

I have to step out for awhile so future replies may be slow, but thank you very much for taking the time to discuss this with me.

-- very (talk) 01:50, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

My two cents on the whole Hanji gender thing. I believe the official anime art, which I have since edited into the entry, show that Hanji is physically female when body type in compared to characters such as Sasha and Ymir. There is also no real evidence outside of questions about the nature of the Japanese language as it relates to gendered pronouns, that suggests Hanji identifies differently from biological sex. I understand that real life issues concerning gender identity are very important, but frankly it seems as though people have sort of started running with this issue to a degree that really has no business in the character entry.

I propose, until there is evidence to the contrary, we simply go with Hanji's physical gender as presented in the official artwork. The anime shows a woman's body in the standard of how women are drawn in the series, and the manga portrayal does not have an adam's apple as the confirmed male characters do. Therefore, it seems that people need to simply go with the simplest explanation. Everything else is just fanon guessing, and has as little place in the character entries as shipping or fanon theories.

Harostar (talk) 07:25, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Harostar; there simply is nothing in the manga or in the anime to suggest that Hanji identifies as gender neutral, gender neuter, bigender, etc, and I personally feel it is othering to isolate Hanji and not any of the other characters assumed by fandom to be female who speak in a similar fashion and are drawn/animated in a similar way.

I liked the Trivia section you added; it acknowledges the issue fandom's made of it in a neutral way.

-- very (talk) 07:35, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Alternative pronoun sets like ze/hir and ey/em are neutral in nature but they strongly connote the identity OF neutrality as opposed to singular and plural "they" which connote both a lack of contextual knowledge and neutral identity based on context.

Using singular they pronouns in the wiki includes gender neutral as a possible identity without excluding the possibility of Hansi being female.

As for the trivia that was added and the newest comments to the chat section, the implication that someone having/not having an adams apple or breasts makes them one gender or another is harmful to trans/non-binary people. Secondary sex characteristics are not an indication of gender, especially in the case of neutrality where there is no matching set of sex characteristics. And why are we basing their gender on breasts when they could potentially be intersex and therefore also not designated female at birth? The simplest explanation is that for now we have no idea, the creator has not provided us with an answer so anything is possible, so why not use pronouns that leave it open-ended? To use female pronouns when we don't have enough information "because it's easy" is damaging to trans people who already get erased and ignored and misgendered because it's easy on a regular basis.

Making assumptions about someone's gender based on their biology when we have been presented with ambiguity is unfair.

71.231.53.102 08:06, June 12, 2013 (UTC) Z

While I understand the concern about real world implications, the debate is once more simply one of fan theories that has no evidence in the series. I am well aware of the issues concerning transgendered people, and people who identify outside of the gender binary spectrum, as I am friends with several such people. The issue here is that people are projecting theories within the fandom as something which is fact, when it does not belong outside of the trivia section.

Hanji is portrayed as biologically being female, and at the moment we have no evidence within the canon itself to suggest identifying as anything else. That is very typical of the cast, as frankly the only person with a confirmed sexual orientation is Ymir. There has been no discussion within the series itself about Hanji having an identity different from biological sex, and we have no official information (as with Ymir) to suggest anything different in terms of identity. As such, the theory of Hanji as anything else is a fan theory and not a fact.

My question is this: Why does a character need to be addressed and shown explicitly as female to be acknowledge as such, when the evidence is heavily in favor of such?

Harostar (talk) 08:24, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

The important thing is that Isayama-sensei left this character's gender open-ended. It is not as though every character needs to be shown as female to be acknowledged as female, but when their gender is treated ambiguously by the writer it's important that we respect that decision as readers and not assign a gender, otherwise we are erasing non-binary people.

So why not leave the trvia where it stands and use the ambiguous, fully-inclusive pronouns in respect of the creator's words and in respect to non-binary people who might wish to indentify with this character? If you have trans* friends I'm sure you can understand the importance of even the smallest representation and how big of a difference it can make when they are a nearly invisivible group, even more so in the case of non-binary trans* people. Since the debate is open and we have no evidence one way or the other, why not use the most inclusive pronouns? Singular they implies neither a neutral nor binary identity and simply leaves room for ambiguity.

71.231.53.102 08:51, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to make one thing clear, in manga (Japanese, not translated), Hanji is not referred with a specific gender (since they usually make this clear) or we're basing this whole thing on the interview session which seems like a joke to begin with?

In either way, not that it matters much, the thought of Hanji being a male never crossed my mind while reading the manga and that was before 'she' was introduced in anime. However, I personally think that there is no problem with following the anime. They make it clear enough that she is a female and I highly doubt they'd do so if the author wanted otherwise, right? The adaption is quite faithful, after all.

09:08, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

It seems everyone is basing this around a single interivew. Hanji is not referred to using specific gender pronouns in the original Japanese, but what people seem to miss is that Hanji is not unique in this respect. Gender is almost never mentioned, for example Armin is never referred to as being male but no one doubts his gender.

Anonymous commenter, because there really isn't any ambiguity. Hanji is not handled any differently from the majority of the cast. Very few characters are referred to using gendered pronouns, or otherwise have their gender blatently discussed. There is one single incident with a question, which Isayama did not answer. That was several years ago, and since then we have seen plenty of evidence of biological sex. At least just as much as Armin or Rico, who people have no questions about concerning gender.

The simple fact is that we have no evidence within the series to suggest Hanji identifies as anything different. And as Very stated above, it really is Othering to insist that Hanji must be different from other characters handled in the exact same fashion simply because the other characters look closer to their expected gender. Hanji is not a particularly feminine in looks, with strong features and lack of concern over a messy appearance. However, the anime portrays feminine body language and behavior.

There is no erasing of non-binary people or denial of the existence of trans characters. If anyone is closer to that, I would say it would be Nanaba who could be read in many different directions. The whole debate over Hanji stems from someone criticizing artwork because of a woman looking too manly, and the artist being avoidant in response. One amazing thing about Isayama's artwork and the series in general is the portrayal of women, with examples from very traditionally feminine Christa to androgynous Ymir and Hanji. Several of them have strong features that we tend to associate with being "masculine", and body types are realistic for how athletic they all are.

The long and short is that Hanji's gender identity is a matter of theorizing and headcanon for some fans. Hanji has not been portrayed any differently from most of the cast, so we need to realize that questioning gender identity because one character doesn't have "pretty" feminine features and not questioning a character addressed and handled the same because their features are more traditionally feminine is even more problematic.

Harostar (talk) 09:17, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

In that case, I'd personally agree with keeping her as a female till specifically proven otherwise. 09:21, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. I really don't understand the need to make things so complicated.

1. Artwork portrays a female body structure.

2. Hanji uses feminine body language and behavior in the anime.

3. Hanji is not portrayed or addressed any differently than characters such as Armin, or the vast majority of secondary cast members.

4. Theories concerning Hanji being intersex, or transgendered, or non-binary are fan theories.

We have no evidence within the series canon about Hanji being anything different from what is right in front of our faces. There is no evidence that Hanji is intersex. There is no evidence that Hanji does anything to falsify a female body shape. There is no evidence that Hanji identifies differently. We can theorize as much as we like, but for the sake of factual information we need to stick to what we can confirm: Hanji is biologically female, as evidenced by anatomy. Hanji is a professional soldier and scientist, who doesn't care much about looks and gender is not taken into consideration because it has nothing to do with Hanji as the person who leads a squad or does SCIENCE!, or makes Levi think they have an "Abnormal" in their midst.

And one more point. Regardless of what might be in Hanji's pants, someone that behaves as a woman through mannerisms, body language, and socially-normative cues such as hair length and style.......would still be referred to as female because that is their identity.

Harostar (talk) 09:38, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that it matters a lot! It matters for a lot of people in a lot of ways. Having representation of a marginalized group is incredibly important. As for the anime, they do not make it clear and still consistently refer to Hanji in a deliberately neutral way. A female presentation and female body does not equal a female person. In fact, the feminization of Hanji's character in the anime could be a great thing for non-binary visibility, as it shows that not all non-binary people look typically androgynous and that some are really feminine or masculine presenting.

Hanji is handled different from the rest of the cast. The use of "that woman" (a common addressor and a poor translation from the original) is never used, instead it is replaced with their name or rank. Many of the other characters are seen in gendered barracks. Isayama has also been asked this question more than once in many interviews and has specifically kept this character ambiguous. It's not just one time, because fans simply don't ask just one time and leave something ambiguous and confusing and hard to understand alone.

As for whether Hanji is feminine-presenting or masculine-presenting, neither of those options affect their gender identity at all. I am not questioning their gender identity based on how they are drawn, that was never something I mentioned besides when "biological sex" was brought up. Please do not put words or ideas into my mouth.

Given that Isayama has not given Hanji a gender I cannot understand why we don't just leave it ambiguous and "unknown," why are we assigning them to female when we do not know and our only contrary evidence is "she looks female so she must be female"? Aren't theories that Hanji is female also fan-theories? Just because being cisgendered is more common doesn't make it the default.

All that I am saying is leave it ambiguous until we know better. I specifically mentioned ey/em hir/ze pronouns were not appropriate because they assigned an ambiguous gender identity, neither are female ones in the same way. I am NOT saying they are absolutely non-binary, I'm just suggesting it's a possibility we should be aware of and respect.

Also "And one more point. Regardless of what might be in Hanji's pants, someone that behaves as a woman through mannerisms, body language, and socially-normative cues such as hair length and style.......would still be referred to as female because that is their identity."

This is hardly the case and is EXTREMELY harmful. There are plenty of people who do all the things you mentioned and don't have a female gender indentity. Androgynous is not the only way of being gender-nuetral.

71.231.53.102 09:54, June 12, 2013 (UTC) Z

How about this, then. Does my current edit look better? I attempted to leave things neutral by avoiding any phrasing towards gender, and that includes the awkward "they" stuff because in terms of what we officially know.....well....we do not know anything beyond anatomical traits. Hanji is Female (?) because obviously we do not know anything about the mind behind the person. Every single one of us is making assumptions, and the whole debate would honestly be confusing to someone who is new to the fandom. We need to be cautious to present that while the series presents a character with the anatomical traits of a female, there is debate about gender identity. The issue I have with previous edits is that it presents the question of Gender Identity as being one addressed within canon to the newbie, rather than something that is a theory among the fanbase.

Harostar (talk) 10:05, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for being so passionate 71.231.53.102 in supporting a cause that you feel is correct. I appreciate your feelings toward keeping Hanji ambiugous, but there simply is not enough evidence to the contrary concerning keeping that way. It is obvious that everyone has different views about how to portray Hanji and Isayama's comment has muddled it even further.

To keep things even throughout, we must go with our best perceptions and use rational judgement when identifying these characters. If that information is CONCLUSIVELY proven wrong, then the situation can be easily remedied with an edit.

However, to modiy a page to ambiguity of which there is little support for, is something we cannot do. An example of a major changes we have made is in the new Eren Yeager page. I have read this manga always thinking his name was Jaeger and it pissed me off initially to think Yeager was the true name.Yet, Otsuka gave proof to the contrary and we changed all the pages affected. I would be more than happy to personally change Hanji to ambiguous IF there is evidence more than at the rpesent offered. Until then, please keep her female or you may be unable to edit Hanji's page as an anon any further.

Thank you.

Jo4n (talk) 10:12, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for chiming in on things. Hopefully, we can settle down and some concrete confirmation will eventually be released.

Don't get me wrong in my arguments, because I am not opposed to the concept of characters that are ambiguous or otherwise outside the so-called normal spectrum of gender and sexuality. It would be awesome, and in my head Nanaba is somewhere on the spectrum and left us too soon. I would likewise have no problem were we to learn that Hanji does identity as trans, or non-binary, because inclusion is awesome.

The issue I have is solely one concerning accuracy and avoiding confusion among people unfamiliar with the canon and various extra pieces of information floating around. Anatomical traits are all we have at the moment, in terms of official material. Harostar (talk) 10:23, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand how confusion is a bad thing in this instance. And harostar, anatomy belies nothing about gender identity, it is not official material related to this topic. Therefore we have nothing. Except maybe the interview.

I am also disappointed at the moderator's response and choice to equate name confusion with the erasure of a marginalized group. Also the implication that female is the default and anything nonbinary and nonfamiliar must be proven as an absolute before it will be considered is transphobic. Of course the assumption is all people are cis unless proven otherwise.

I'm also appalled by harostars comment, which was quoted by Z. As a trans man who wears skirts, makeup, is dfab, and has no intent to transition, your describing me. No, I do not identify as female. You do not have the right to assign a gender to me or anyone else, even if that is a fictional character.

Repeat after me, Anonymous person. Please, please listen and stop with the accusations of erasure and transphobia.

Hanji being someone who is trans, or nonbinary, or anything else are pure fan speculation. They are unconfirmed theories people have come up with, and run with, and some people seem to be taking this as the gospel truth. There is no official confirmation. There are no offical statements concerning it. The issue has not been touched upon within the series, nor has it even remotely been touched since a single vague comment in March 2011.

The anime is an official source. The artwork from both the anime and the manga portray someone who is biologically female. There has been nothing within the source material to suggest anything other than biological sex, something common among the cast.

Understand that. Hanji is not the only one. People seem to have become obsessed with Hanji, while ignoring that the same can be applied to most of the cast. The arguments I have seen applied towards Hanji are true for Rico, for Armin, heck for people I think we can all agree about such as Reiner and Levi. Not referencing gender is normal for the series.

And until we have something more concrete, we need to keep theories on one side and only provide what is official. We can theorize as much as we want, and people are welcome to headcanon about Hanji to their heart's content. But for the purpose of providing accurate information to new fans, we need to be consistent in listing someone by their biological sex and implied gender until such time as there is official material otherwise.

As for my previous comment, I do apologize. However, again.....please understand that we are talking about something that is strictly a matter of fan speculation. Speculation and Theories are not Canon.

Harostar (talk) 13:15, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying they're trans, I'm asking not to be excluded from the possibilities. That is a form of erasure and transphobia. The default is not cisgender.

Hanji being female is also fanon speculation. Theories are not Canon.

They have been given no gender, implied or otherwise. Stop using biological sex as an argument. Its not. It's transphobic. It erases our right to identity that doesn't conform to our birth designations. It erases us. It erases me. Don't use that argument. Every time you put female it erases the slight chance I have at representation.

I'm out this is too painful.

Enjoy hurting trans people to keep your newbies from feeling confused for a minute or two (I'm not the only one)

-- --

I'm sorry you feel that way.

However, any theories concerning Hanji and identification are fan theories not supporting within the source material. I've done my best to compromise through the Trivia section, and even my latest edit in stating gender as "Female (Biologically, otherwise unknown) to reflect debate while still acknowledging what little canon information we have.

We have no evidence that Hanji is handled differently from anyone else within the cast that has anatomical traits of one sex but never has gender referenced. None. Zero, zilch. We have a fan theory that has exploded on tumblr. And that is all.

P.S. We do actually have one character in the series that has no confirmed gender, no hinted biological sex, and is completely ambiguous: Nanaba.

Harostar (talk) 14:15, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Uh, 'his' page says otherwise, or at least it did, until the anon edited it... 14:27, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

---

I have actually seen multiple opinions concerning Nanaba. During my first reading, I thought Nanaba was a woman. A friend thought Nanaba was a man. And the fanart seems to share this confusion, as I've seen Male!Nanaba and Female!Nanaba. Does anyone happen to know whether or not we're given any hints about that, beyond guesses about that too awesome to live character?

Harostar (talk) 14:46, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Whats the harm in keeping Hanji's gender out of the artical other than that it is unknown???

The writer did choose to do the same thing when asked about it so its appropriate to keep it unkown in the wiki

As far as confusing people its disscussed right in the triva section. This sorta character has happend before (no gender for sure, creator keeps it that way, and not really discussed in manga, ie. crona in soul eater) and their wiki has respected this.

Characters like this happen so rarely I can count it on one hand probably. Having an ambigious character means a whole lot to a bunch of people who normally have no characters in a series to represent them. Its not like there is no evidence to suggest their gender is unkown. Obviously if its a debate and we have quotes from the writer then it is truely unkown. I pointed out serval things not only in manga AND anime but also the writer that suggest that gender is unconfirmed purposfully. What writer doesn't know their characters gender?''' He knows but chooses to keep it ambigious. So its probably best if we do to for now. Thats all im suggesting.'''

Hanji has clearly gotten exsposure as having no canon gender and means a lot to a group of people to keep it that way. So why are we making them female when it literally hurts no one to keep it unkown?

Also as a side note. The use of Biological is a hot topic in transgender issues and it also the subject of much debate. Its generally considered offensive and incorrect (for reasons I  personally agree with) so its best if just unkown is used since Hanji sometimes looking like they have boobs is really not a good indicator of gender and doesnt really matter much in the end. The series has so many great female characters so having one great unkown gender one would mean so much.

71.231.53.102 21:19, June 12, 2013 (UTC) L Z

Debate of Gender
I'm starting a new topic because the other one is getting very long.

It is definitely important to recognize that there are some people who do not fall easily into the category of male or female. Indeed, it is an issue that does need to be more widespread and people must recognize. However, I cannot in good faith, allow Hanji to be changed to ambiguous simply because the author would feel "it is more entertaining" to keep it ambiguous.

I feel that would give false hope to those who believe Hanji is a member of neither gender and it would establish an unhealthy precedent toward simply keeping characters with an ambiguous appearance as unknown.

In such cases, really the only thing that we can do is use our best judgement and common sense to identify the characters. If Isayama Hajime truly means for Hanji Zoe to not be a female and whether in the manga, anime, or interview that he makes that clear AND NOT simply in a passing statement for enjoyment would I feel that leaving her gender ambiguous is valid.

Just as most people cannot discern those with a definite gender from those without, Hanji cannot be that symbol on the basis of very shaky evidence that is being offered at the present.

My deepest apologies to those who are hurt by this, Jo4n (talk) 02:00, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

I feel assigning a character a gender is the more harmful thing to do in this instance. Leaving it unknown DOES NOT rule out female as a possibility, it just says we don't know. Because we honestly don't know.

I just can't wrap my head around this idea that they should be assigned a gender when we can leave the option open. Like we clearly don't know and we can say that. '''Unknown means we don't know. Female implies we know.''' Unknown DOES NOT mean they are non binary, there are better identifiers for that.

Identifying a character is not the only option!!!

we don't know that his statements was said for enjoyment or entertainment, assuming that is jumping to conclusions about the author that we can't make. The shaky ground only makes it more important that we include ALL options, instead of erasing some because they're not as convenient.

just leave it unknown. This debate only highlights that we don't know aka it's UNKNOWN. Unknown is not synonymous with nonbinary.

I disagree. This has become a real issue we can't ignore it.

Saying it was a joke is being presumptous about the authors intentions. I don't think it was a joke and gendering Hanji has been avoided in the anime and manga. Hanji is not going to set the standard since most other characters don't have the same dialouge open about them. Since there is one it would be socially irresposnible to ignore it. Since its clearly an issue now why not just be respectful and go with unkown until more info is relaesed?

Saying unkown isn't just fan theory. Their gender just truely unknown. And the author publicly refused to answer. Literally nothing will happen if we just keep the wiki devoid of gender since thats the same as in the manga and anime.

Saying Hanji is female is fan theory just as much as any other gender you could call them. Its not common sense to make Hanji female just cause they look feminine when there is clear controversy. Not to mention people willing to fight for it.

If you truely belive "it is an issue that does need to be more widespread and people must recognize" then why sifile that disscussion with misinformation that could be taken as confirmation of a gender idenity?

Why is it so important to declare Hanji a female? That is unconfirmed information.

71.231.53.102 03:16, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

As was said above, if we declare Hanji as 'unknown', we have to do the same for Armin, Rico, and many other people that the author NEVER refers to with japanese gender pronouns. While it's a secondary source, the anime is also an official source and it will be used in such cases until the author clearly states that the anime is wrong and he wanted it to be otherwise. Anyway, please visit Jo4n's blog to see the final decision. There is no point in discussing it any further. 08:28, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Here is something from Kodansha Comics, concerning the difference between Creator intent within the source material and how official translations handle characters never directly referred to by their gender. (Concerning a character in the series Fairy Tale, another manga they localize.)

"Just using gender-neutral language isn’t good enough— it’s a lot easier to do that in Japanese without it sounding unnatural, and that doesn’t necessarily mean the author is trying to hide a character’s gender. In order for us to attempt to do the same in English, we need a very good reason. In this case, there was a conversation in the book specifically about how the gender was unknown, so it was clear what he was going for. For future reference, if anyone finds evidence of this type (within the books) for another character, please forward it on to us."

http://kodanshacomics.tumblr.com/post/52814035379/fictional-rei-kodanshacomics-hahaha-time-for

My understanding is that Kodansha Comics uses "Zoe" as the given name, rather than the family name. I'm going to see about snagging copies for myself, to see how they handle Hanji in the official translations. Anyone have a copy on hand to check on how the character is handled officially for the English language?

ETA: I sent in a question to the above tumblr, so maybe we can finally put this beast to rest. Again, people, remember that usage of gender-neutral language and lack of EXPLICIT references to gender are not traits unique to this character. They are not, so please realize the only evidence we have to dispute physical traits is one very open-ended comment from Isayama from two years ago.

Harostar (talk) 17:59, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

And it is official. From Kodansha:

(Discussing how they choose to romanize the character's name)

"....but "Hunge" looked stupid. We didn't like Hans since it's a man's given name and the character's female."

https://twitter.com/KodanshaUSA/status/341679659223756800

There we have it, folks. Kodansha says the character is female.

Errm...
I can't find a way to remove the "Shingeki-no-kyojin-2874239Hanji's reaction to Eren's titan powers. Jo4nAdded by Jo4n", as it doesn't appear in the editing page. Can someone fix this or show me how to? Kinda confused. Chris (talk) 20:53, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Done :) I'm not sure why you couldn't find it as all I did was to scroll down and edit that line out of its respective place. -- 21:58, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Will someone include the stats for Hanji?

Vanihba2000 (talk) 00:58, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

Pronouns, renaming, etc.
I know in the manga, Hanji (officially Hange) is never referred to specifically by any gender, but since the anime has Isayama as a consultant and established Hanji as female, the pronouns should be included now. The anime is also official material, so everything that is established there, as long as it's not contradictory with the manga should be taken as canon. The other issue with this article is that it should be renamed Hange Zoe, since it's the official spelling dictated by Kodansha.  h fc 2 X  00:52, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

I personally disagree with using Kodansha translation as official ones, unless there's a definite proof that they're more correct than 'old', fan translations - i.e., Isayama's involved. I'm not sure how accurate it is for SnK, but I've seen far too many awkward translation of Kodansha for different series, to the point when even fan translation were better. At this point, it's just "another translation" for me. Since you say that Isayama is involved with anime (first time hearing of this, tbh...), I'd rather wait for the DVD/BD releases of anime with official subs as Glass suggested recently, which may decide the fate of many character names for good.

As far as her gender goes, I believe we've already established that she will be referred to as a female here so yea. 15:02, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

It spells as Hanji. Depends on the manga translations. Manga has been translated with many name spells. (Nana Aoi666 (talk) 10:53, October 17, 2013 (UTC))
 * We're not talking about scanlations. We're talking about her official english name by Kodansha USA is Zoë Hange.  h fc 2 X  18:39, October 17, 2013 (UTC)

There is a problem here. In Hanji's/Hange's case the name change does not work like with the other characters, because the English translation is outright contradicting the japanease one, because of the facts that the main characters adress each other with the first names and in the japanease version that name is still Hanji/Hange. Because of that I can confidently say that this mix-up was not intended by Ishiyama himself, even if he approved of K-USA's romanisations. So as long, as Isayama does not explain this himself, or suddenly changes to Zoe being the first name, then I think this should be at least discussed. NeoSuperior (talk) 20:39, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

I was actually thinking whether we should just keep referring to her as 'Hange', while switching the names in the article title. After all, Kodansha USA called her in their latest volume preview 'Hange', not 'Zoe' as well. 21:04, November 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well this is a clear breach of canon, isn't it? They are (or at least were) actually changing names. I don't think Isayama approved of actually changing his names. So I think it really should be Hange as first name (although I still cannot stand it). NeoSuperior (talk) 23:45, November 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Once again: exchanging first name with last name and vice versa is going directly against canon, whether Isayama "approved" of it or not. I think his own written manga pages have higher priority than those from Kodansha USA, or not? NeoSuperior (talk) 06:30, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Isayama's approval goes like that mostly because he didn't know about Zoë being a given name and someone must have informed him down the line. And about her being introduced as "Hange Zoë" originally, papermoon2 yet again has an explanation.  h fc 2 X  07:04, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * I never had faith in Papermoon's explanation about the names, but THIS is really just bu**sh*t. He did not adress the issue, that the Kodansha chapters are literally contradicting the japanease chapters, which, simply said, should not be allowed. The explanation itself? You can name yourself however you want but in the end you always have to list your name in some governmental institution and there at latest you have to give your first and last name in the order, the institution wants it and not in which the "culural background" dictates. And the names being "switched" because Hanji/Hange is "odd"? Again, this is just ignoring the fact that the japanease version uses Hanji and not Zoe. NeoSuperior (talk) 17:39, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not taking that explanation. Never, ever, has Erwin been refered to as 'Smith' or 'Commander Smith', and Hange is called 'Squad Leader Hange' by her subordinates every single time, never 'Zoe'. Makes absolutely no sense for Hange to be a surname and the fact that it is an actual surname in Germany or w/e isn't convincing enough given the fact that the series is Japanese and we've already seen countless times what happens when Japanese authors try to refer to foreign stuff. 17:24, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * So do you agree with changing "Zoë Hange" to "Hange Zoë"? NeoSuperior (talk) 17:43, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do 17:47, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just because I saw it when I moved the talk page again (Misk already knows about this), Pixis DOES call Erwin "Sumisu Danchou", so there's at least one person who does address him by his surname. Nobody does this with Hange, however.  h fc 2 X  23:50, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Just wanted to mention that in the OVA, Hange adresses Erwin as 'Sir Erwin Smith' in the written proposal, and signs herself as 'Hange Zoe' at the end. This clearly shows that 'Erwin' and 'Hange' are first names, otherwise, Hange would sign herself as 'Zoe Hange' instead. 18:34, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

Seriously though, what is SO BAD about putting "unclear"? And BY THE WAY, "looking female" is not a gender. They may be of the female sex, if you really want to say that they can have no female body traits to be androgynous, which is a huge misogynistic issue in and of itself. Are you really going to take the word of a company that the CREATOR CONDEMNS AND SAYS CHANGED THINGS HE DIDNT WANT CHANGED over the CREATOR HIMSELF? If anything, please change "gender" to "sex". That would be BETTER, since it's not like you honestly think hips and boobs make a character female, right? Seriously, even just leaving it blank, or putting "female/unknown", or even just "female (debatable)" would do it. Instead, you are gendering her based on what you think, which is fannon, not cannon. Cannonically, from the creator, we do not have a gender. Putting a gender there when there is no official one is erasure, and it's changing a resource people use for facts to perpetuate your own opinion. This is not your pet project, this is not something you get to decide, whoever owns this. As long as there is a chance the character is neutral, you MUST portray that as your responsibility to the fandom and the community, and to shingeki no kyojin. You are solely responsible for everything people see on this site, and for feeding them incorrect information and contributing to erasure if you end up being wrong, which is still possible. In the interest of the truth, change it. 69.115.115.90 17:28, December 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, please. You did 3 mistakes:
 * 1. You overuse capital letters. Do you think "screaming" the content makes your argument stronger?
 * 2. I and most others always, from the beginning on, viewed her (yes, I am using "her") as a female. Just because some Fujoshi wanted to fulfil their yaoi fantasies and headcanoned her into a male person, does not make it true. But it seems the suggestion they spread around infected a lot of others, including you, as well.
 * 3. Was Sasha proven to be female in the manga or by the "word of god"? Was Erwin proven to be male in the manga or by the "word of god"? No, so why do we need to prove it for Hanji/Hange?
 * You also messed up the formatting of the whole talk page. Please do not do that again. Anyway... The only thing from your post that has any merit at all is the proposition to change "gender" into "sex". Maybe I will discuss that detail with the staff. NeoSuperior (talk) 18:14, December 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that the anime makes her a woman, and since it doesn't contradict anything from the manga or whatever Isayama himself has said, she will stay a woman. And yes, a woman, even though she may be biologically male, she still considers herself a woman. The discussion is over.  h fc 2 X  03:06, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

Gender (or not gender) confirmed by Kodansha/Iyasama
Due to the new development regarding the pronouns Kodansha has been instructed to use for Hange in the English translation, I propose that their gender be changed to "unconfirmed" and the pronouns changed to "they" or sentences reworded not to include pronouns entirely.

Source: http://kodanshacomics.tumblr.com/post/73207971230/hello-i-wanted-to-ask-you-guys-a-question-about-attack

Kodansha has answered several questions regarding the pronoun use and it has been clearly established that Hange's gender is outside the binary or is not to be established. Therefore, in order to keep with canon, the wiki page should be changed accordingly.

If there's worry that a person not conforming to the gender binary might "cause confusion" among readers, I suggest we add a note at the top of their page informing readers of the instruction by Iyasama. If there is worry about the pronoun "they" being gramatically incorrect, I encourage anyone with those worries to read a Wikipedia article or maybe a book from the early 1800s, since it's been in use since then.

Apricotchan (talk) 06:07, January 16, 2014 (UTC)Apricot

No, all it means is that Isayama doesn't want to confirm the gender, however, the anime has already made her a female so we're sticking with that. 11:28, January 16, 2014 (UTC)

Boobs and hips do not equal female. Isayama has requested that pronouns not be used (or be used equally) for Hange so we should respect what the creator has said. I think the Isayama's wishes come first, for obvious reasons (the animators didn't create the characters, he did!). If Isayama doesn't want to confirm their gender then we should leave their gender unconfirmed, like Apricotchan suggested.

I don't understand why this is a problem? If the company publishing AOT can respect the writer's wishes, so can the wiki.

67.183.12.42 05:29, January 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * They just don't want to take the role of "captain obvious". From the first time I saw Hange, I never doubted that she is female and never understood how some consider her to be male forcefully. Also you should look at the source you guys persistently quote, just look at it again: "or at least to use he AND she with equal frequency". Now think about this part, just think about it, until you cannot think anymore. A little hint: "Hey, in chapter 30 Hange was male, but for the lulz let's make Hange a female from chapter 40 on again, so we use he and she an equal amount of times. Why? Uhhm.........." NeoSuperior (talk) 06:17, January 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * The anime presents you Hange as a woman. We have it like that just because of that, but you're free to think we're doing the wrong thing. Isayama wanted you to interpret Hange as whatever you want anyways, and is something we have agreed upon. We're not forcing you to think the same as we do.  h fc 2 X  11:33, January 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * This argument is really weak. The only evidence given for this is, "Well, it looks like a chick, so it must be!" There's no actual link or proof to support it, here or in the article. The anime doesn't make the female argument any better, considering Romi Paku has a history of playing men and boys and uses a more masculine voice while doing Hange's role, a lot like Heinkel Wolfe was presented in Hellsing. Physical appearance could mean a lot of things as far as ambiguous characters go, so a shot of slight underboob isn't confirmation. Certain peoples' opinions or feelings on the matter shouldn't play a part in deciding.


 * It's less about personal interpretation on this and more that the wiki has decided to override both the series' creator and the official translation to go with the anime's (very ambiguous) stance on a character they haven't outright confirmed to be male or female. The wiki is supposed to present information in an unbiased format, but taking matters into your own hands and confirming one side of this debate that has no answer and probably never will is completely biased. Even if you don't see it that way, what you have now presents the anime (a secondary source) as more valid than the manga (the primary source). On any other wiki, this debate would be shot down immediately, so why are we still discussing something that has zero hard evidence to support it? --BobLogical (talk) 23:51, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

Except the series' creator and the official translation don't confirm anything, they're basically saying 'Pick Hange's gender yourself'. Since we cannot do that as it would be biased, we've decided to follow the second official source and that is anime. Simple as that. 00:12, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

But, again, the anime hasn't confirmed anything. It makes just as much of a case for Hange being male as it does female. People are allowed to draw their own conclusions on what gender they think Hange is, but we shouldn't be making that decision for them by endorsing one side of the argument over another. If we work based on appearances exclusively, then Nanaba (as another person has already pointed out) might as well be a male. --BobLogical (talk) 03:33, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see that we have at least one civil person wishing to discuss this issue. You see, we will not be modifying this article yet in regard to Hange's (lack of confirmed) gender. The main problem is not the confirmation (or lack of confirmation), but it is the article iself which is not cleanly written and lacks references. We will have to change some things around and fix stuff before we get to write out pronouns and that will require some extra effort from our part (admins), because the article will remain indefinitely locked due to vandalism and people who cannot understand that not-confirmed does not equal non-binary.  h fc 2 X  08:10, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

I've got nothing going on. I'd be willing to go through and rewrite bad parts and source everything. I do this stuff all the time on DC and DBZ wiki. Take me an hour or so at the most. --BobLogical (talk) 19:04, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

I've taken Hange's article in the so I'll try to finish it asap. 19:19, January 26, 2014 (UTC)