Forum:Jäger vs Yeager

This forum is too discuss the surname Jäger, Jeager or Yeager. The community of shall discuss and vote as to whether we should use Jäger or Yeager. These are the only two options available however if you wish to present a different idea fill free to do so.

Discussion
Guess I cannot vote... oh well... I already said everything I wanted to say about this on the Eren talkpage, but maybe I'll summarize it here at some later point. NeoSuperior (talk) 18:16, October 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Huh? You can vote -- XGlass Reflection Talk


 * Yes, you are right, I guess I can vote :D I voted "Jäger", because that is the correct German spelling. "Jaeger" is not wrong though, it is just, let's say, "less prefered" in the German language, as you only write it like that in crossword puzzles or if you are typing on a keyboard without the letters "ä", "ö" and "ü". It is a bit unfair that the votes for Jäger and Jaeger are split up although it is practically the same, while Yeager can have all the votes for itself. Though variations that I have seen here, but are completely wrong are "Yaeger", "Yeagar", "Yaegar", "Jeager", "Jaegar" and "Jeagar". NeoSuperior (talk) 19:00, October 3, 2013 (UTC)

What about Jeager? In all honesty, I'd prefer it over Jäger. It is basically the same as ä can be written as ea. And Crunchy uses it afaik 18:31, October 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Jeager isn't actually a word in German and would actually be Jaeger which is basically Jäger. But yeah, since Crunchyroll does use it and its an official source. I guess it has to be considered. -- XGlass Reflection Talk


 * Oh I typo'ed, it's indeed Jaeger. Sorry, I'll fix it~ 18:41, October 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * You know, Jaeger is also a surname in german, but I think we should go with the official spellings from Kodansha (even if I don't like Hange and such).  h fc 2 X  18:53, October 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well it's all or nothing, unless we want to vote for each character like this. 18:59, October 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Kodansha are unreliable though, they use 3 different spellings for wall Rose thought volumes 1-5 (Rosa, Rose and Rosaline). Not to mention the translations have lower quality than that of scanlations. --  XGlass    ☣    Reflection
 * Son of a--- I honestly can't decide as I don't mind all spellings (Yeager, Jaeger, Jäger), especially since they all mean and are technically pronounced the same way ("jäger" being the original word of course). Guess I'll have to vote at some point though. That said, it does beg the question: are we going to operate like the One Piece wiki where we'll change the name based on what seems the most "accurate" (irregardless of the English-licensed translations) unless Isayama confirms it himself? Or are we going by specific translations? (this goes for all characters) In that regard I do wanna ask, was "Yeager" truly and directly confirmed by Isayama himself on his twitter or was that just his editor? Because I find that disregarding Isayama's tweet feels a bit cheap even if "Jäger" is the original word, especially if he specifically chose those spellings himself. Also xGlass can we get a full list of Funimation's name translations? I'm curious with their choices in terms of the character names. --DementedP (talk) 22:26, October 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * It is his editor's tweet account. He has his own blog though, if I remember correctly. Anyway: Did I mention that I hate "twitter canon"? I also already explained multiple times that that twitter post could mean nothing more other than "Kodansha USA uses these names", because that twitter posts was not concrete enough to interpret it without a doubt as "these are the real official romanisations". You also have to keep in mind that if he wrote anything else, he would contradict an official licensor, which could lead to quite some trouble for both the magazine and Kodansha+Kodansha USA. As I have also said you have to keep in mind that in manga as a medium you cannot "see" the pronunciation, so if we supposed that it really is "Jäger/Jaeger", then a lot of US-readers would not be able to pronounce it correctly, so Kodansha USA had to change it to "Yeager". It was logical. For the anime though, that restriction does NOT exist, as you can hear the pronunciation from the mouths of the characters directly, so there is no problem to use the German names. Therefore the anime is more reliable as a medium for localisation. Xglass also said something about grave translation errors about the walls that i wasn't even aware of until now. Then there is also the anime opening that is literally calling him "Eren Jäger". For me this case is clear: "Jäger" if we got for correctness, or "Jaeger" if we go for editing convenience, because most of us do not have the letter "ä" on their keyboards, so editing that would be a pain. That is my stance on this. NeoSuperior (talk) 22:55, October 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's why I was asking if it was directly from Isayama himself or if it was his editor. No more, no less. I don't care for the explanation on why Kodansha probably chose "Yeager" considering how I've seen the name "Jaeger" many times before in other fictional works and pronounced it exactly the same way. Still I want to see a full list of the Funimation translations before I cast my vote. Also despite xGlass's insistence and claims of "Jäger" being used by the Funimation subs, I've scoured through the Talk Pages and noticed that he only decided to utilize "Jäger" because it's the original German, whereas it's meant to be "Jaeger" in Funimation's subs. Also for xGlass to say that "Jaeger" shouldn't be used because it isn't a real German word is completely irrelevant because we are deciding on a NAME not a word, and the name "Jaeger" is very much a true and existing name that is literally interchangeable with "Jäger" as a name across different languages. Now if we're gonna go with German translations and try to stay "accurate", basically you're suggesting we go the One Piece Wiki route in terms of disregarding English-licensed names and using what we deem as "accurate" unless proven otherwise by Isayama himself. In that regard, then we might as well throw in the most glaring name out of everyone and change "Bertholdt Fubar" into Bertolt Huber/Berthold Huber. --DementedP (talk) 23:54, October 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Woah hold on, we aren't disregarding Englished-licened. As well as FUNi and Kodan, I've also looked at Madman and MANGA UK, they all give either of the 3 names in discussion. I personally don't agree with Kodansha, cause in my opinion they're bad translators. However the option is still available to vote for and can still win. In terms of why I chose Jäger, its because FUNi don't make it clear as to which they're using and probably will never make it clear. ae=ä. So after being proven wrong in chat about this, it was majorly considered.


 * As for FUNimation names, the only one that is out of place on the wiki is Gunther. --  XGlass    ☣    Reflection

Now that's new O.O 20:19, October 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow, I hadn't read this because of tldr. XGlass, it's okay if you don't like Kodansha's translations because yeah, they may not have the best translations out there and we all have preferences, but saying that they change the spellings every week... LOL WUT  . Not cool, man. Saying something like that to prove your points right isn't good, considering you prefer FUNi's subs.  h fc  2 X  09:53, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

He said that Kodansha USA had provided numerous romanization for one thing throughout several volumes, if that doesn't prove that their translation is inconsistent if anything, then I dunno.

Though I'd like to point out the link I posted above, with Isayama being the one to approve of the character name romanizations in the Kodansha USA translation, there should be no discussions anymore and we should follow these romanizations whether we like them or not, imo. Because it means that these names are what the author wanted them to be like. 10:46, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * Dammit, well, our hands are tied. --  XGlass    ☣    Reflection


 * Aside from Kodansha's convenient names, that "coincidently" make the American pronunciation about the same as the Japanese and them just switching first and last names around ("Hange"), there is still one reason I have a hard time to believe that this is really "Isayama's will". I think it is more likely that they made their own names and simply asked Isayama "Is this OK?", to which he simply said "OK". Or do you think he sent them a list with all characters' "official" romanisation, even though he did not do that even once with the guidebooks or on other occasions? But that was only speculation of course. I have a certain reason to say this though: I am 95% sure that "Sasha Blouse" was not the intended name by Isayama, the remaining 5% being that he doesn't give a damn about this, but I cannot go into more detail for now. I explain it later. NeoSuperior (talk) 18:58, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * That's what I thought too but even if Isayama just "ok'd" the names rather than providing the names himself, we don't really have much of a choice imo :/ 19:16, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * That Kodansha is saying that Isayama approves of the names is only said by Kodansha themselves. Would a company admit that their names are not "canon"? Technically they could always claim "Isayama never claimed that the names are wrong, therefore they are official", or something like that. Or maybe that is what they are saying. Anyway I have to go now, so I'll be able to say more tomorrow. NeoSuperior (talk) 20:10, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * I doubt they would try to lie though, I've been following their tumblr for some time and the person managing it seems to be quite a honest person, if it means anything, not your usual robot-like marketing tool. 20:24, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Miskos, what I was saying is that XGlass was making this up. Throwing crap at the Kodansha version because you don't like it is fine actually and totally respectable, because that's his opinion on the matter. That's how opinions work. But, coming up with things like they "change the spellings and names of things/locations/characters in each volume"? That's really cheap, because it's total bullcrap. Like, it's okay if you prefer FUNimation subs better (which for the record DO change the spellings every episode), but defend your posture with solid arguments, dude.  h fc 2 X  22:30, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, "accurate" or not, if the author approves it (even if he himself didn't choose them personally), I'd rather respect that than follow what I like to think seems "right". Gonna have to go with "Yeager" on this, as much as it's an Americanized version, at least it's still essentially the same name with the same meaning even if it's a different spelling. If people are truly desperate to cite name origins or how the name is a different form of a certain name, you can always mention it as a part of their trivia or as a completely separate section labeled as "Name" to detail such notable information. Similarly in the Metal Gear Wiki where one of the character's names is "Adamska", we mentioned how it's simply the Russian form of "Adam", which is notable since the character once used the codename "ADAM". Beyond that, we've even mentioned how their respective nickname "Shalashaska" is actually a modified/corruption of the term "Sharashka". Take your pick, but I wouldn't mind going for something like that instead of trying to push for our own views even if they're technically more "correct". Again, it's more that I'd rather respect Isayama's decision, even if it may not have been exact spellings that he chose personally, the fact that it was approved is still something that should be accounted for. --DementedP (talk) 23:55, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * You misunderstood me, when I originally purchased volume 1, the translation I got for Rose was 'Wall Rosaline', on the other hand, this user got the translation of Rosa if I remember correctly. When I re-purchased the volume, I got a translation of Rose. Feel free to not believe me, it doesn't bother me but I'm telling the truth.


 * As conflicted as I am, I say Yeager is the best choice, however, this is subject to change if anyone can give a valid enough argument with evidence. --  XGlass    ☣    Reflection
 * Hmm, well, seeing as Kodansha themselves said they changed the editor for Volumes 1 and 2 to the current guy who's working on the rest, and then he fixed inconsistency errors in the rereleases, I think there's a grain of truth in what you said. However, seeing as they have mended their mistakes is enough for me to say that they are doing their job.  h fc 2 X  17:24, October 9, 2013 (UTC)

Well in the end all the possibilities are still "イェーガー", so in reality it only comes down to "correctness of references", represented by the German spellings (i.e. Jäger and Braus) versus "convenience for American manga readers", represented by Pronunciation-centric americanized spellings (i.e. Yeager and Blouse). Looking back at it Isayama most likely didn't even care much about the romanisation as he always used Katakana and never Romaji for Eren (エレン・イェーガー) and others. Kodansha was most likely simply the first who asked, so they got his approval to decide for themselves, since Isayama apperantly didn't care much. The negative side for using Kodansha's spellings is that it contradicts the anime (Yeager) or contradict certain references (Blouse). I guess you can use Kodansha's version, as long as you somehow solve the aforementioned problems. NeoSuperior (talk) 02:36, October 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't take this as an argument for argument's sake since I'm honestly just curious here, but how exactly does the spelling of "Yeager" directly contradict anything in the anime? Is it simply because the opening uses German lyrics and mentions "jäger" in the opening song? I don't see how it necessarily contradicts anything in the anime unless you mean that the anime truly spells it otherwise and I missed it somewhere (and let's not forget how the anime is simply an adaptation). Again, I couldn't care less about the floating notion of "convenience for American manga readers" (a notion that is still nothing more but pure extrapolation after all) especially when Yeager is specifically treated with the same pronunciation and meaning. If we go by "correctness of references" I'd at least like to see some evidence citing such references here before we go about deciding what we think is "right". As an aside, I'd at least like to point out that even with or without English-licensed translations can we somehow please fix "BERTHOLDT FUBAR" once and for all? It's so ridiculously stupid as a translation, and anything between "Berthold Huber", "Bertolt Huber" and "Bertolt Hoover" would make much more sense.


 * Again such problems of translations/localizing names could easily be negated by mentioning the necessary information in their article: be it in their Trivia section or under a new section called "Name" (or whatever people wish to call it). We can easily mention that "Yeager" is simply the Isayama-approved spelling provided by Kodansha and how such a written English spelling is simply an American variation of Jaeger/Jäger, describing how both aren't entirely wrong due to their intended meaning. Mind you, it's easy enough to fix when we can easily mention how the spelling is a misconstrued version of the potentially original intended German name, especially in the case of Sasha's glaring surname (which isn't wrong for a wiki to do, mind you). Allow me to present you a possibility:
 * ''Sasha's name is short for "Alexandra", which comes from the Greek "Alexandros", meaning "defender of mankind". Her last name "Blouse" is a misconstrued spelling of what is possibly an intended use of the German name "Braus", possibly in reference to the German saying "in Saus und Braus leben", meaning "to live off the fat of the land", a phrase she herself quotes.

''
 * Sure it may not look pretty but at LEAST it's something. Again now this isn't final, as it's entirely up to you guys but we should at least decide on how we'll go about on the names as a whole instead of just passively saying "which is better for which" in terms of individual cases. In that regard I find that we should look at everyone's cases as opposed to simply isolating it on Eren, and to some extent as brought by NeoSuperior, Sasha's surname. Now that said, I asked about this before, do we want a wiki that adheres to some form of acknowledgment towards the English translations that have been approved by the author himself, or do we want a wiki where we decide the spellings for ourselves based on what we think is "accurate"? At this point the question lies not with our issues with Kodansha's translation, but rather if we would like to respect Isayama's decision? (even if it was probably something he didn't give a lot of care about, and even it isn't necessarily "right") --DementedP (talk) 03:46, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion we should completely remove all trivias that imply that a character name X comes from Y. We don't know how exactly the author came up with the name, for all we know he might've thought he was referring to something German but completely screwed up pronunciation/spelling due to lack of knowledge in German language. Now, while it's nice to state that name X means Y in language Z, saying something like "... is a misconstrued spelling of what is possibly an intended use of the German name..." is a pure speculation and should not be present in the article at all, in my opinion. 12:26, October 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, the origin of the name "Yeager" IS in fact a name that germans who used to be called "Jäger" adapted, because they preferred that their names are misspelled instead of mispronounced, after imigrating into the "new world" that is called USA today. NeoSuperior (talk) 18:15, October 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Miskos:
 * "In my opinion we should completely remove all trivias that imply that a character name X comes from Y. We don't know how exactly the author came up with the name, for all we know he might've thought he was referring to something German but completely screwed up pronunciation/spelling due to lack of knowledge in German language."
 * Actually fair enough, I can agree with that and it's definitely fair game. While Isayama's intentions may have been to reference German names, we can never be too sure if he even knew their original spellings and the like. I've seen similar cases of Japanese authors unintentionally making a mess out of other languages and it's not really a bad thing but a simple misunderstanding (the same way that English-speaking countries misconstrue Eastern words/sayings). That said, I don't see a problem with citing name references and origins since a lot of other wikis tend to the same with no problems whatsoever (even mentioning the potential misconstrued spellings at times). --DementedP (talk) 23:04, October 10, 2013 (UTC)