Talk:Hange Zoë


 * Archive 1

Pronouns
It is demonstrably incorrect for this article to be written with female pronouns. Isayama very deliberately left Hange's gender undefined and as such this article should use they/them/their pronouns so that viewers and readers can continue to identify with the character as they see fit. This article uses feminine pronouns even for sections which have not yet occurred in the anime, for which the manga is the sole source of canon, and thus only neutral pronouns are appropriate.While the anime does feature Hange with traditionally feminine anatomy, gender cannot be concluded from anatomy-- they're still referred to with gender-neutral Japanese pronouns as far as I'm aware.

Missbritches (talk) 10:56, June 13, 2014 (UTC)Missbritches
 * No, it is not incorrect.  h fc 2 X  22:31, June 13, 2014 (UTC)


 * The source you quote only supports what I was saying. Hange's gender is whatever you want it to be. Using feminine pronouns destroys the ambiguity that Isayama very purposefully wrote into Hange and is not canon. I urge anyone with the authority to edit this page to correct Hange's pronouns so as to be neutral, so that all nonbinary and trans individuals can continue seeing them as representation. It's important. I will gladly edit the article myself if given permission.


 * 149.175.157.147 06:44, June 15, 2014 (UTC) Missbritches


 * I don't want to dwell too much into this, as we had tons of discussions about this topic already. So I'll keep it brief: Isayama kept the gender up to interpretation (nothing less and nothing more). The anime team decided to go with the female interpretation and does not directly contradict the manga in any way by doing that (and compared to Kodansha USA, Isayama did not do anything about the anime making Hange female), so by our policy to include anime content if it does not contradict canon, we list it in our articles. Hange is no exception to this rule. NeoSuperior (talk) 17:59, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

Due to the recent editing of this page, I feel we need to have a discussion. Hange's gender is left open to reader interpretation in the Manga, which we consider to be the 'A' canon. By using female pronouns we are taking a side and telling people how to interpret their gender, which we shouldn't be doing. I believe Hange should use gender neutral pronouns to allow everyone to interpret the gender however they choose.--PrelateZeratul (talk) 02:13, March 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * Take your silly political agenda off the page, the moderators already decided on it 9 months ago. To go the length of referring to Hange as "they" because you want to cram your social justice crap down everyone's throat is ridiculous, it never occurred to the author that anyone would think of Hange as anything but female until a bunch of your types pressured him into making Hange's sexuality ambiguous in the manga. The anime expands on the content of the manga and it clearly shows Hange as female and the vast majority of fans identify her as just that. Think of something better to do with your time other than being offended. TourguideNixon (talk) 03:16, March 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * ...What? Did you even read anything I said? Stop jumping to conclusions about my politics or what I think. Labelling me a SJW and speaking in this manner is not only unhelpful for discussion, it could be construed as abuse. I would ask that you conduct this discussion in a respectable manner, not just rant. Further, your theory about why Isayama made Hange ambiguous is completely irrelevant. I'm not doing this for some social justice cause, I'm doing it because Isayama said that the reader is free to pick Hange's gender themselves. The anime is a completely different issue and has absolutely no relevance to this conversation. In the Manga, the 'A' Canon, Hange's gender is consistently ambiguous with Isayama confirming this multiple times. It is not the job of wiki editors to speculate on why he made the changes or even if we like the changes. This is the reality of the situation, if you don't particularly like the fast that Isayama did that, I can't help you. In a similar issue, we recently removed the designations of Rogue Titan and Dancing Titan because they are fan names and not considered canon. The only information that should be on Hange's page, or anyones, is canon information. The canon information is that Hange's gender has been left open to interpretation, it has not been confirmed as female.--PrelateZeratul (talk) 03:25, March 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Where did I call you a SJW? "Did you even read what I said?" You're talking out of emotion and trying to supplant a months old decision with political ideology, it's bad form, and now you're playing the victim card because it's become apparent it's not going your way. Just stop already.TourguideNixon (talk) 03:31, March 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not playing any card, I'm looking to have a discussion about this topic that you are apparently not interested in having. Hfc2x, the bureaucrat who recently resigned, came out against gender pronouns and wanted to remake Hange's page without them, he just didn't have the time. in the 18:11 edit to Hange's page you referred to me as a "Social Justice Person" so that is where you did so. I'm not acting like the victim at all, just trying to get you to act civil and respectful. Also, as of right now this isn't "Going anybody's way". There is a dispute and I want to solve it through discussion which you apparently have little interest in. Lastly, and again, don't presume to judge why I'm doing this and claim it is for political ideology. My personal opinion of Hange's gender is totally irrelevant to this discussion, we have to accept what Isayama has decided, even if we disagree with it.--PrelateZeratul (talk) 03:39, March 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * The admin made the ruling, not some moderator who recently quit after upholding them and, again, I did not call you a SJW, you made that up. There is precedent and the overwhelming logic/will of the fans that say Hange is a female, subverting that because a few Japanese fans wanted a sexually ambiguous character in the manga is silly. In the profile it has the correct gender for each version, that's enough, don't force your politics onto everyone else and ruin a page meant for fans for your own amusement. TourguideNixon (talk) 03:56, March 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * I think you need to read up on the role of admins on this wiki . They are not the ones to make final decisions, that is the community. Just thought I would get that out of the way. Also, you can deny it all you like, but you did refer to me as a "Social Justice Person" in the edit summary of one of your Hange undos. You can't just claim these outrageous things and then provide no backup. Further, this wikia is not run by the 'Overwhelming will of the fans', if it was than we would consider the Anime 'A' canon and Rouge Titan/Dancing Titan would be used here. They are not, because they are not canon. Hange as a girl is not canon, Hange's gender is stated to be ambiguous, left up to reader interpretation. To repeat myself, the fact that you think Hange's gender situation is silly is completely irrelevant. Your specific opinion on why Isayama made the change has no bearing here, we just have to accept what he decides. He decided that the gender is ambiguous and open to interpretation. Also to repeat myself, please stop assuming things about my motives and politics. My opinion on Hange's gender doesn't matter at all, but Isayama has made the decision and we have to accept that. My motive is to follow the canon and if you want to know my 'politics' or opinion on the issue, then here it is. I think the situation Isayama made with Hange's gender is foolish and I wish he would just forget about it. However, my opinion doesn't matter and the author of this manga has decided that the gender of Hange is ambiguous.--PrelateZeratul (talk) 04:35, March 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * I have an admin like position on another wiki, I'm quite familiar with their role, thanks. You, singular, are not a consensus either and taking a large poll of the wiki would be highly impractical. Also, a small group of 2-3 newish users don't represent a majority either as that would make it very easy to game the system to push certain agendas forward. A decision was made, one that represents a long held truth in the AoT community and that's how it will stand until a large showing of users and/or AoT community shows a change in opinion. Sorry. I'm finished with this conversation. TourguideNixon (talk) 07:23, March 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with PrelateZeratul on this one. Prelate has made it quite clear that Hange's gender is up to the reader to decide and interpret for themselves. The Anime decided on their own interpretation and chose female. Any and every person can choose what gender Hange is in their own mind. However, in regards to this site, we, as a wikia must go with the "neutral" option because of Isayamas decision. I also think it is strange why he made it the way he did but again, that is not up to us to deicde. We provide people with the truth and with legitimate facts from Canon sources, which in this specific case comes from the manga that Isayama himself writes. I think Prelate, and now hopefully myself have made this quite clear and I personally see no reason to continue this debacle. However if you still see an issue with this then please let us know. --Do1ball (talk) 05:17, March 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * "Gaming the system", speaking of the devil... look at what I found the same 3 users who bombarded the Hange profile today, almost in unison, are the same exact 3 who voted to suspend former moderator hfc2x. Not only that, do1ball and JinxTheFunHouse signed up almost at the same time just this year. Crazy how that works, huh? You 3 seem to want to create a little oligarchy within this wiki, calling each other a "consensus" on things all the while taking advantage of an otherwise unknowing group of other editors. In fact, I'm slightly saddened LCSage hasn't made an appearance yet, what's holding him up (another one who signed up in late January 2015)? The administrator needs to take control, it's well within his power to strike down a small group of users destroying the wiki within. Time to take control, this isn't wikipedia with power arbitrators who research everything and strike down vote abusers, so the administrators needs to take that role and see what's happening here. TourguideNixon (talk) 07:39, March 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well Tourguide if you have an "Admin" like position on another wiki then I would like to see the wiki, and remind you of a few thing. Admins and their 'power' vary from wiki to wiki, so understanding one doesn't give a complete understanding of the other. Further, as I have said before the opinions of the previous admins may have changed and are no longer representative of the entire community. I requested the debate be re-opened so that we could solve this problem through dialogue. Ignoring what I'm saying and my individual points is really not helpful to anyone, least of all yourself. That is how we decide things, not by accusing me of being a Social Justice Person and having Ad Hominem attacks. I also question what proof you can provide of this 'long held truth' and would like to remind you that a great opinion by fans, if it exists, is not always correct. I would wager that the majority are anime-only and have seen Eren's 'Fire mode' at the end of 25 and consider it canon. They can believe that all the like, it's just not true. The same can be seen here, with Hange's gender being ambiguously canon despite what any amount of people might think. As for your comments regarding me and my 'sockpuppeting' I really have no idea what you're talking about. 2 users signed up at a similar time so they aren't allowed to vote how they feel? This idea that were creating an oligarchy is an amazing leap forward and based on such little evidence. The discussions put forward are about removing people who cause abuse, not taking over the wikia. Admins don't block people for voting the same way and signing up at similar times, and I fear for the wiki you are a part of if that is how you conduct yourself. You and I are supposed to be discussing Hange's gender pronouns, not this conspiracy theory which, although I find odd, you are free to do over at my talk page since I believe in discussion. That doesn't belong here and I'll say no more on that issue in here, and an admin on another wiki like yourself should know that. I'm still perfectly content to discuss the issue of Hange's gender.--PrelateZeratul (talk) 09:28, March 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Here you go. Any restrictions an admin takes on his/her power is self imposed and can be rectified, this is clearly one of those circumstances where an admin should step in and stop the community from being steamrolled by a small collective group coordinating attacks upon certain pages and members to impose their will. TourguideNixon (talk) 18:39, March 4, 2015

Just to point out one page in the manga someone says "MS.HANGE" just pointing it out69.47.170.215 01:16, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

So even if y'all don't care to respect pronouns in the anime is there a reason you're misgendering them in the anime with she/her? just saying, trans people don't get many canon representation characters and their genders are ALWAYS this enormous panicky bone of contention for cis people, y'all have no chill and you need to find some, it's 2015.
 * There was actually a decent sized debate about what to do with Hange's gender. Information on the exception we made for it can be found here. In short we ruled that the page, with so much information on it, would be very confusing to read and we would have to remove almost all of the anime content depicting Hange as a female. As for the page in the manga that said Ms. Hange, it was probably not the official tranlation. Isayama specifically requested for them to keep Hange's gender neutral which you can find in her trivia and here. --JinxTheFunhouse (talk) 01:32, June 7, 2015 (UTC)


 * I dunno, guys. The manga does refer to Hange, at least in the first volumes including Hange, as female. HaloCnCGenerals (talk) 14:49, November 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * HaloCnCGenerals, the publishers admitted that was a mistake on their part, and they went back and worked to correct it for future copies of those volumes.
 * Anywho, I understand that the wiki would be difficult to read if they/them/their was constantly used, so I won't argue about that.  But what I will say is that Isayama has been clear that he doesn't want male or female pronouns applied to the character in the manga and refuses to confirm Hange's gender, or let anyone else confirm it.   If most of us said Jean was a woman, that certainly wouldn't make it true.  Why is it any different for Hange?  S o, while Isayama did leave Hange's gender up to individual fan interpretation, a "fan consensus" about Hange being a woman will not make it so.  "Truth does not depend on a consensus of opinion."  It's not about political social justice warrior junk.  It's about respecting the creator's intentions for the character.  SnarkySquirrel (talk) 21:57, January 2, 2017 (UTC)


 * If you look at the top of the article you will see that this article contains a non-canon exception about this characters gender. We already discussed this awhile ago and as this is a fan run wiki and not an official website, we decided to go with the easiest reading/writing format. There is currently talks among the administrators that may change a lot of our articles, and we may soon go back to attempting to write Hange's page in a gender neautral format. In fact, I will soon be doing some experiments in my sandbox with that concept. But for now, the pronouns issue is already a closed case.--JinxTheFunhouse (talk) 22:05, January 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * Also it is worlds different for Hange because Jean has a a canon confirmation about his gender and Hange does not. Canon is what guides this wiki, but in a situation such as Hange's we had to make a non-canon exception.--JinxTheFunhouse (talk) 22:08, January 2, 2017 (UTC)

Canonical Anime Gender?
I understand that this is clearly related to the topic above, so I hope it's not redundant to make a new topic, but I think regardless of whether or not we use they/them or she/her or something else for pronouns, the gender itself needs to be clarified.

Is there a reason Hange's gender listed as canonically female in the anime? I don't think the topic of their gender is ever discussed. I've seen she/her pronouns used, but only in English translations. Did the actual dialogue (in Japanese) ever actually use gendered pronouns? I don't actually speak the language, so if feminine pronouns are actually used, I apologize, but if not, what is the actual evidence that Hange is a woman in the anime? I don't think it's fair/legitimate to base it strictly on English subs.

If there is a different reason other than English subs, that would be great to know, too! I only ask because there's no citation. Pianosandwich (talk) 04:48, January 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * Subs are tricky because they're never 100% accurate. I do believe it is confirmed that Hange's canon gender in the anime is a female though. I have seen subs refer to her as a female but also she is depicted with breaths and a female voice actor. --JinxTheFunhouse (talk) 04:58, January 4, 2017 (UTC)