Board Thread:Manga/@comment-27702860-20160616092113

Am I the only person here who appreciates Reiner and Bertholdt's character?MasteroftheWastesI've been seeing a lot of Reiner/Bertl hate in the fandom recently. Most of it seems reactionary (I.E. the revelation of Marco's death and Armin's tragic fate.) They've done bad things, but calling them evil is a disservice to their characters. Unlike most manga antagonists, they're not so cut and dry. They're just kids, trying to make the best of an extremely fucked beyond belief situation. Not condoning genocide, but look at a little deeper before you start posting about how they're irredeemably evil. a day ago * AhmedHadi1What's done is done. Whether they were forced to or not it still does not mean they're not to blame at all and pin it all on the ones who recruited them. a day ago a day ago a day ago Edited by AhmedHadi1 a day ago a day ago They're beaten and broken. If only that were true, give em like six hours and they can turn into titans again, assuming they don't have anything else in their bag of tricks, which they probably do.
 * MasteroftheWastesBut still, Zeke is the real enemy here. Killing them would solve nothing. They're beaten and broken. Best to leave it at that.
 * AhmedHadi1Killing them would solve nothing yes but EATING them would benefit humanity by a lot. The one who eats them might also unlock their memories, so.
 * AhmedHadi1They're not gonna leave them beaten and broken because you know, they're Shifters? If they regenerate, they'd be able to Titanize at a moment's notice but that's what you want doesn't it? Lol, look I can see you're a Bertolt fan judging by your PP but you and I do not have a say in the matter anyway. It's all up to Isayama.
 * MasteroftheWastesI am a little bit biased. I just don't find the heroes to be all that fascinating. The only protagonist I find interesting is Erwin Smith, only because he's more complex than just a standard good guy. But I do realize Bertl's fate is in Isayama's hands now. I just hope he's feeling merciful :(
 * Tausendbergreply to #3MasteroftheWastes wrote:

Look, I don't fault you for being sympathetic to them, but from the perspective of the SC, it's in their rational interests to execute them now that the opportunity has (apparently but looks can be deceiving) presented itself.

Yes we can talk about the tragedy of the child soldier, which is basically what they are just with titan shifter capabilities instead of AK47's, but part of that tragedy is inherently that they are lambs to the slaughter when things don't go as planned.

I mean, to be fair to you, cause I know we butted heads, but if I made an Attack On Titan movie, I think I would focus on Annie the most because I think she's an exceptionally fascinating tragic character.

But I think it would be terrible writing for the Survey Corps to not behave rationally when they have the chance.

Also, personally, I've become kind of cold towards Bertolt in the past few chapters, he was more of a tragic character previously in terms of being a complex personality, now he's become something of an apathetic sociopath and I hate sociopaths, they bore me.

Furthermore, I think Bertolt has internalized whatever shithead ideology or objective that he has been beholden to. Like, in that last conversation with Armin I'm just grossed out by his sheer arrogance. You know, just no premise of negotiation or give or take or that they have any value, man, he turned, maybe on some level he might know that he's already dead, he saw his comrade's head blown off, on some level perhaps seeing that made him know that he's in deep. Edited by Tausendberg a day ago a day ago I just don't find the heroes to be all that fascinating. I actually don't fault you for that. Of the main three, Armin was the most interesting and now he's gone. Eren has his moments of interest but I believe he's poorly written. Mikasa, eh, who would really care if she didn't have Ackerman superpowers? Also, Mikasa and Eren's "relationship" just doesn't work, at all. I mean, shit, boy gives a girl a scarf at a vulnerable moment but that's supposed to explain her interest and devotion apparently in perpetuity? No sale.
 * 1 Kudos AhmedHadi1"Bags of tricks" Indeed! Reiner could seal himself in an armored sphere for all we know.. or Bertolt what if he evaporated his actual body O.o like damn them Shifters with their crazy abilities, smh.
 * Tausendbergreply to #6MasteroftheWastes wrote:

I like Erwin a lot, he's definitely the best. Hange's cool too. Levi also has his moments but I don't know what he has to offer the remainder of the storyline. I actually like Jean as well, he's probably grown the most naturally out of all of the characters and I want to keep following him. a day ago "Bags of tricks" Indeed! Reiner could seal himself in an armored sphere for all we know.. or Bertolt what if he evaporated his actual body O.o like damn them Shifters with their crazy abilities, smh.AUGH, gosh, don't even give Isayama ideas in case he's trawling through these forums.
 * 1 Kudos Tausendbergreply to #8AhmedHadi1 wrote:

"YES! After this upcoming flashback chapter, I will make Bertolt activate his emergency ability to vaporize his human form and then vanish in a cloud of mist and then reform his human form just out of reach. And he only pulls this off because Eren hesitates. BAHAHAHAHA" a day ago Levi also has his moments but I don't know what he has to offer the remainder of the storyline.I wasn't that fond of Levi until chapter 81, that is. The way he brutally slashed up Zeke's Titan form and his actual limbs had me gawking like damn, Shorty sorry for doubting you! Lol. a day ago a day ago
 * 1 Kudos AhmedHadi1reply to #9Tausendberg wrote:
 * AhmedHadi1Ah damn it and here I had another possible act Bertolt could do to avoid interrogation but oh welp better not give Isayama strange ideas, eh?
 * 1 Kudos TheDoctorXA student who recommended the series stated he liked the "moral ambiguity." And he had only seen HALF--"Hal-fu?!"--of the anime! He did not have Eren proclaiming Death Doom and Destruction on all Titans only to realize that, well, they may be innocent people made into Titans.

That being written, I think part of the "Point" is there is moral ambiguity and there is moral bancrupcy. The approach of of Reiner and Bertholdt strikes me very much as a "Kill them all, God will know his own" for those of you who are up on your Albigensianism [Stop that!--Ed.]. I would almost think that, once the Reiss Family fell, if the Homelanders simply said, "hey, you know the Hip Hop music you make? It turns us into Titans. Like, cut it out!" the Newer Regime would respond, "Really? My bad!"

Instead you have what seems like a contradiction: R, B, and A may mourne Marco, but only because they knew him. Everyone else? Men, women, children? They see them as insects. They have dehumanized them. See Annie's smile and mercy towards Armin. That is not ethics, that is "oh, if I like you, I won't kill you."

--J.D. a day ago
 * TausendbergMoral Bankruptcy is definitely one way to put it. Bertolt just states matter of factly that something like 800,000 people need to get massacred and also get more milk if you're going out. There's no middle ground with someone who has such a clarity of intention, which by the way, that's one reason why a lot of people are attracted to sociopaths, clarity of intention, because they aren't conflicted by empathy and general concern for other people, it makes certain forms of confidence come naturally to sociopaths and makes them attractive to people who lack such confidence themselves.

Sorry, I digress, Bertolt has a clarity of intention that makes finding any sort of middle ground with him impossible. I mean, he literally thought valid behavior was to say, "ok, so, here's what I want, I want to kidnap your friend and I want to kill you and there's nothing you can do to stop me so I'm going to get what I want and there's nothing to discuss further." Maybe it was rational in his own head but someone who exhibits that kind of behavior? Anyone who doesn't want to be a victim of their intended actions needs to neutralize them (meaning kill them. You can either lure a shifter very deep underground to attempt to imprison them, not an option right now, or kill them. Wall people lack the means to reliably non-lethally neutralize a shifter. Annie doesn't count cause it was by her own means that she became neutralized.) the first chance they get because someone whose mind is set so clearly is going to try to pursue that objective every opportunity they get, meaning specifically, Bertolt is limbless but as soon as he can manifest another titan and possibly create another multi kilaton explosion, he's going to do it. He's going to keep trying to exterminate the Wall People until either he or they are dead.

There is no middle ground.

MasterOfTheWastes, it's cool that you like Bertolt and Reiner, but let me tell for your own sake, Isayama will either write some kind of out for them, some kind of escape, or they both die. There's no rational reason why the Survey Corps would keep them alive. a day ago 14 hours ago 14 hours ago
 * MasteroftheWastesI feel like there's something Bertholdt and Reiner are hiding from us. They've stated they want humanity to die, but then they do other shit to the contrary. Like when Bertholdt starts breaking down to Jean and Connie, stating that he did view them as comrades, or when he can clearly see Reiner's horror after sacrificing Marco. Or just recently, when Bertholdt starts to exclaim how humanity is evil, but then tells Armin how not everyone is evil but that they still have to die. Something is obliviously going on with their heads.
 * 1 Kudos MasteroftheWastesreply to #10If it seems like I'm angry here, I'm not. I actually enjoy talking to you guys about this :)
 * TausendbergLikewise. As much as I gripe about it taking so long to get through the story, this is probably the most I've examined a piece of fiction with other people.

I get what you're saying but judging by Bertolt's demeanor especially inside his titan, I think he's become a lot more "simple" in his thoughts and motives. Remember that Reiner criticized him for being unreliable. 14 hours ago 13 hours ago 13 hours ago 12 hours ago
 * MasteroftheWastesI do agree. The war with humanity is making his thoughts, motives, and actions almost animalistic. First it was I don't hate you. Then it's you need to die. Soon it'll just be kill. No regard for anyone.
 * Gavin The OtterI like them too. I mean, sure, I understand why people dislike them, but I do like their characters. I love how devoted they are, and how much they trust eachother.
 * MasteroftheWastesI always admired the almost brotherly bond Reiner and Bertl share. Like when Reiner defend Bertl at the Castle, or when Bertl saved Reiner when he was getting his ass beaten by Eren. Or just recently when Bertl abondoned his original plans to nuke the district to see if Reiner was alright.
 * TausendbergLook at Page 45... Bertolt doesn't look angry, he doesn't really look scared, he kind of looks a bit like a doll. He looks to me like someone who realizes that they're out of time.

I think the story with Bertolt that we've seen is that he's slowly been stripped of his humanity to become the ultimate monster because after all this is the strongest we have ever seen Bertolt both in his generated explosion and the fact that as the colossal titan he was able to stand freely. But now that he's lost all of his humane tendencies and he's lost his monstrous capabilities, there's pretty much nothing left. I imagine that he'll be fairly apathetic as he gets executed.

The only ambiguity about his fate that I can see right now is that much earlier in the series they talk about extracting Eren without killing him by cutting him at his arms and legs, so that is something that Eren would think of doing... Despite Eren's previous proclamations, Eren apparently cut off Bertolt at the arms and legs, which was probably very deliberate because it's the cuts are too perfect to be a coincidence. If he just wanted to kill Bertolt outright then he would've aimed his blade strikes wherever and that could've likely destroyed Bertolt's spine and probably mortally wounded him. Edited by Tausendberg 11 hours ago
 * TheDoctorXEven Eren knows they need to squeeze/woodchip the information out of him.

--J.D. 10 hours ago 10 hours ago 9 hours ago I imagine that he'll be fairly apathetic as he gets executed.I strongly feel that as well. That he'd be calm half opened eyes and no shit given while they have at him or is devoured. Edited by AhmedHadi1 9 hours ago 9 hours ago 9 hours ago 8 hours ago 8 hours ago 6 hours ago 5 hours ago Edited by MasteroftheWastes 3 hours ago 3 hours ago 3 hours ago
 * MasteroftheWastesI think the psychological trauma is weighing heavily on him. Think about it. At the age of 11, you committed mass genocide against people you didn't even know. For the next five years you're forced to train with those same people, each with a desire to see you, "Humanity's Greatest Threat", be killed. You tell yourself it's for a greater cause, but begin to form attachments to the people you were tasked with killing. He know that Bertholdt was at least friends with Armin, Connie, and Jean from the conversations you have. You reveal yourself to your friends, breaking any trust they had in you. In Bertl's head he's trying to rationalize it, saying it'll be better once we retreat home. But there is no going home. Zeke made sure of that. All the damage on Bertl's psyche has scarred him deeply. He's no longer trying to rationalize his actions. To him, all he can do is hurt the ones he loved and kill me he rest.
 * TheDoctorX Why am I "Mr. Pink?"
 * AhmedHadi1reply to #21Tausendberg wrote:
 * MasteroftheWastesHe'd probably look at Eren and tell him to do it! Tell him that he's not gonna cry to get out of this one.
 * TausendbergDon't get me wrong, Bertolt is a tragic character in the sense that he seems very much a captive who has basically slowly died over a period of years and now, he's done for, unless he can fly or something, he's out of time, the Survey Corps have absolutely every reason to kill him. I hope they don't torture him and then kill him because it won't achieve anything and I hate torture and I hate sadism. Just cut the spine into two pieces or devour him.
 * MasteroftheWastesI feel like eating him quickly would benefit everyone the most. If Eren tortures Reiner and Bert, then I'm gonna hate his character even more.
 * MasteroftheWastesMost of the Titan shifters seem unhinged. You ever notice that. Each of them has something psychologically wrong with them. Eren especially. He wishes the most painful of deaths on people he use to call friends and allies.
 * TausendbergWhy don't you tell us how you really feel about Eren?
 * Aggression25Bite them hard enough and soak in their spinal fluid.
 * MasteroftheWastesI find him to be boring at best, repulsive at worst. I get the rage he feels, but he needs to let it go and stop letting rage cloud his better judgment. I get tortuing them sounds all nice and all, but that's seriosuly inhumane. At least give them a quick clean death, or devour them and use their powers to kill Zeke. Don't become a complete monster because your mom died. A lot of people's moms are dead Eren. You are not special.
 * TausendbergHAHAHAHAHA
 * MasteroftheWastesWhat?
 * TausendbergBut see, Eren is precisely the way he is because he knows that the cold uncaring sky is telling him he's not special and he finds himself driven towards intense willpower because it's kind of like Kenny's monologue, in this cruel world he would just not be able to go on unless he was drink on his own willpower.

"  A lot of people's mom are dead Eren. You are not special."

This is true but not everyone's father dies because they ate them. He is special in that regard. That and he basically carries an incredibly heavy burden on his shoulders, trying to stay committed to his responsibilities and the tremendous faith and hope invested in him in the context of multiple clashing agendas that even he is not fully aware of.

Just saying. 3 hours ago Eren especially. He wishes the most painful of deaths on people he use to call friends and allies.After they have admitted to slaughtering children.
 * TheDoctorXreply to #29MasteroftheWastes wrote:

Why do you Hate Children, MasteroftheWastes?

--J.D.

[Edited for the codes. . . the codes.--Ed.] Edited by TheDoctorX 3 hours ago 2 hours ago 2 hours ago So, torturing them isn't gonna bring those kids back.It will make me feel better, and it IS all about me.
 * MasteroftheWastesSo, torturing them isn't gonna bring those kids back.
 * MasteroftheWastesDead is dead. You either move on, or let hatred consume your ever thought and desire.
 * 1 Kudos TheDoctorXreply to #37MasteroftheWastes wrote:

That and they have information. . . information. . . INFORMATION!

By hook and by crock they will get it!

--J. "Be Seeing You!" D. 2 hours ago
 * MasteroftheWastesWell that's your opinion.

In my mind, torturing them would just make the Survey Corps and Eren out to be ammoral monsters.

It reminds of a quote that I'm about to parphrase like hell.

" Don't look long and hard at the Abyss. If you do, the Abyss stares back." Edited by MasteroftheWastes 2 hours ago Well that's your opinion.I have no opinions. Only facts.
 * 1 Kudos TheDoctorXreply to #40MasteroftheWastes wrote:

In my mind, torturing them would just make the Survey Corps and Eren out to be ammoral monsters.

They already are. And if they fail to get the information from these two worthless wastes of oxygen, then will cause more death of innocents.

I reminds of a quote that I'm about to parphrase like hell.

From a syphillis-ridden fool who allowed his sister to take over his work then pervert it to support the Nazis. You should have realized how that undercuts your self-righteous indignation.

I would prefer to quote a more intelligent person who had a greater effect on history:

''You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace.''

--Maj. Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman, reply to the Mayor and City Council of Atlanta, September 12, 1864

B and R deserve nothing less than the curses and meledictions Eren and others can pour out. Eren had no hand in making the war--nor did The Children--and B and R have merely reaped what they sow'd.

In the rain.

--J.D. 2 hours ago
 * MasteroftheWastesWhat's with the hostilities?

"From a syphillis-ridden fool who allowed his sister to take over his work then prevent it to support the nazi. You should have realized how that undercuts your self righteous indignation."

Firstly, poltically ideology if irrelevant here. You wanna discuss politics, do it elsewhere. My conversation is on the characters of Reiner and Bertholdt. Edited by MasteroftheWastes 2 hours ago What's with the hostilities?You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride.
 * 1 Kudos TheDoctorXreply to #42MasteroftheWastes wrote:

--Maj. Gen. William Tecumseh "I F[CENSORED--Ed.]ck Up Your Sh[CENSORED--Ed.]t!" Sherman, letter to Mayor and City Council of Atlanta, September 12, 1864.

Major General William Tecumseh "He F[CENSORED--Ed.]ks Up Your Sh[CENSORED--Ed.]t!" Sherman ''Firstly, poltically ideology if irrelevant here. You wanna discuss politics, do it elsewhere. My conversation is on the characters of Reiner and Bertholdt.''

You quoted him, son. Sorry that you did not know the context of your non sequitur ipse dixit fallacy. Next time, do your homework.

And, perhaps, next time do not try to apologize for the openly and confessionally genocidal.

--J.D. Edited by TheDoctorX an hour ago
 * MasteroftheWastesYes I quoted him, but I did not state I support National Socialism.

How does quoting a person mean you support their ideology?

And what the hell do you mean by apolgizing for confessional genocide? an hour ago an hour ago
 * TausendbergYou know, if Bertolt and Reiner goners either way, I mean, I think it's poor form to torture them... but who really cares, they're soon to be goners.
 * MasteroftheWastesI've accepted that death is a possible fate for two of my favorite characters.

Also, I stated this post by saying I DO NOT CONDONE GENOCIDE. Plus, it's a fictional world where a fictional event happened. My feelings of Bertholdt do not and should not reflect my political or moral standings. Edited by MasteroftheWastes an hour ago Yes I quoted him, but I did not state I support National Socialism.I never claimed you did. Kindly read what I wrote.
 * TheDoctorXreply to #44MasteroftheWastes wrote:

How does quoting a person mean you support their ideology?

Why else would you quote him? You offered him up as an appeal to authority; you cannot complain if others know the context and the authority better than you.

And what the hell do you mean by apolgizing for confessional genocide?

I am not the only one who reminded you that both B and R confess to wanting to commit genocide numerous times. They have killed innocents numerous time. Yet you have a thread proclaiming your appreciation of them.

It is not terribly complicated.

--J.D. an hour ago
 * TheDoctorXreply to #46MasteroftheWastes wrote:Also, I stated this post by saying I DO NOT CONDONE GENOCIDE.Then you should not appreciate those who seek to commit it.

Again, it is not terribly complicated.

''Plus, it's a fictional world where a fictional event happened. My feelings of Bertholdt do not and should not reflect my political or moral standings.''

But they do. If I tell you I admire Buffalo Bill, Ramsey Bolton, or even His Divine Shadow, then I really cannot complain if others wonder if I admire their atrocities. They cannot be separated from their atrocities any more than Hitler can [Godwin!--Ed.] Hush!

What you failed to do, assuming this is your belief, is argue that you find them "merely good villains." The forementioned are "good villians," and one can pontificate unreasonably on their motivations and all of that. They still are complete c[CENSORED--Ed.]nts, as are B and R.

--J. "The Greatest Trick the Devil Ever Pulled!" D. an hour ago
 * MasteroftheWastesWhy else, would I?

Cause the quote had some relevenancy to the situation. The longer that Survey Corps fight the Titans (I.E. the Abyss), the Abyss will begin to reflect back on them in a symbolic sense.

I yes, I do admit my favorite characters commited mass genocide. So what? It's a fictional story, starting fictional characters, in a fictional world.

for example, I supported the Institute in FO4. Does that mean in real life I would support shadow organiations surpressing information and getting rid those they see as threats. NO.

I like Reiner and Bertholdt, but I realize it's fiction. Some of my favorite characters in fiction have all done terrible things. Because it's fiction. 44 minutes ago Why else, would I?I am afraid I expect those who appeal to authority to know about the authority to whom they appeal. It is "merely good manners."
 * TheDoctorXreply to #49MasteroftheWastes wrote:

''Cause the quote had some relevenancy to the situation. The longer that Survey Corps fight the Titans (I.E. the Abyss), the Abyss will begin to reflect back on them in a symbolic sense.''

Only if they start slaughtering children which, thus far, they have not done. Which make your quote of Nietsche only that more tragic.

I yes, I do admit my favorite characters commited mass genocide.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

--J. "You Really Do Walk into These Things, Baldrick!" D. 39 minutes ago
 * MasteroftheWastesLike I said, it's fiction though.

Yes, Reiner and Bertholdt did commit Genocide, so what?

It's not like i'm going outside and declaring that certain people have to death because of my ideoalogy. 32 minutes ago
 * TheDoctorXreply to #51MasteroftheWastes wrote:

Yes, Reiner and Bertholdt did commit Genocide, so what? Quod erat demonstrandum times two. . ..

--J.D. 30 minutes ago
 * MasteroftheWastesWhat are you not getting?

It's fictional. I.E. none of these characters are real and none of these things happen.

If you're implying that me liking Reiner and Bertl is an indicator that I'd be okay with genocide. Then just fuck you very much.

I'm trying to be nice here, yet you keep bambasting me and making look like a genocically asshole. 23 minutes ago
 * TheDoctorXSeems I have got you very well.

If the obvious reaction to your words upsets you perhaps you should spend a bit more time in their construction. Sort of like not quoting an authority that did not actually help you.

Or, perhaps, do not admire the genocidal. It may make you appear to be, to use your unfortunately juvenile vernacular, "a genocically asshole."

Again, it is not terribly complicated.

--J.D.

P.S. And now he has run away from his own word. As I advised: if he did not want the obvious consequences of them, he should not have made them.
 * MasteroftheWastesMy great grandfather Pavel was a slav in Yugoslavia. He died under Hilter's regime. He died in a work camp in Gemrany. Saying I myself would be okay with Genocide is a disgrace to my Great grandfather.

Apparently, too complicated for him.

I will waste no further time with such a child.

--J.D.

P.S. There is every reason to prevent those who make unsubstantiated claims from removing the evidence. It appears some like to hide from words. The originator could have clarified, he could have retracted, he could have even apologized. Instead he escalated into using "adjectives" or whatever is the preferred euphemism.

Worse, it appears that an Admin wishes to aid and abet such dishonesy. 