Talk:Ymir

Information
Where was the information about her being able to read and being worshipped by a Titan was found?R. Lawton (talk) 14:07, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

It was seen in the side story chapter feauturing Ilse Langner in the 34th expedition beyond the walls. The reading part is from http://shingekinokyojin.wikia.com/wiki/Castle_Utgard_(chapter) this chapter I think. Wut? I have no sig anymore? ;_;

Age:
There is no reason to presume anything about her age. The only facts we have are:


 * She wandered as a titan for 60  years.


 * She was in training for 2 years.

I am reverting her age to 62+ unless someone can justify another date. Rkbrumbelow (talk) 19:54, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

First and foremost, your numbers are wrong. She was a Titan for 60 years, and emerged back into human form 5 years ago. She was in training for 3 of those 5 years. She is officially listed as being 17 (on the anime's official page), so she was 12 when she stopped aging and became a Titan. She is one of the older Trainees, being 14 when she enlisted. We know she did not age during her 60 years as a Titan, but resumed aging once she regained her human form.

Therefore:

17 + 60 = 77.

So she is at least 77 years old.

Harostar (talk) 20:37, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

You are presuming the 12, unless you can cite it frome somewhere. If training was 3 years then we are at 63+ as opposed to 62+. Can you provise a source for the other 2 years? I do not find any dates for it. I am not saying you are wrong, just unsupported. Rkbrumbelow (talk) 20:42, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

He said (and he's right) that the official site states her to be 17, and both the anime and manga show "5 years" across the screen when in the training portion of the story, so we don't need a source, and as Ymir was shown at the beginning of those 5 years, (both early in the story and in the ministory with Dazz) then she would have had to be 12 when she became human again. There is no source necessary, please do not change the age again. Chris (talk) 21:19, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Rkbrumbelow, I'm not sure how this is so confusing.

Training is explicitly and repeatedly stated within the source to be 3 years long. It is stated during the Initiation Rite, stated by Eren when he makes his speech prior to going into battle in Trost, and the ages of the characters also explicitly show this. The main characters (Eren, Mikasa, and Armin) were 12 when they enlisted and are currently, one month out of graduation, 15. Hence, their military training takes 3 years.

As for Ymir's age, we know that she was human PRIOR to becoming a Titan. Reiner and Bertholdt explicitly discuss this in the latest chapter, stating she was able to become human AGAIN. And since she did not simply appear out of nowhere fully grown, she must have been at least 12 when she became a Titan. As, again, the official stats for the characters state she is 17. She is, with the knowledge that she did not age during her 60-year stint as a Titan, at least 77 years old.

Where am I getting the 12 years old? Pretty simple. She is currently (physically) 17 years old, and returned to human form 5 years ago.

17 - 5 = 12

Therefore, her pre-Titan and post-Titan age was mostly likely to have been 12 years old.

Harostar (talk) 21:27, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Likely does not make it soRkbrumbelow (talk) 21:31, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

What the hell else do you suggest putting? That's math, word usage doesn't change it and it doesn't make Ymir 63. Is this gonna become a problem?Chris (talk) 21:32, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Ymir did not appear out of thin air. We know she existed PRIOR to becoming a Titan, and her 60 years as a Titan are not taken into account when counting her physical age because she did not age during that time. She is physically 17 years old. I'm not sure how this is confusing.

Harostar (talk) 21:37, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

It makes her 63+ as we can account for 63 years of her life. Maybe she was 102 and became a titan then reverted to 17 when she got out We simply do not know. Rkbrumbelow (talk) 21:42, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Rkbrumbelow, you are wrong. Again. I really am attempting to be patient, but your incorrect facts and seeming inability to grasp basic logic really are confusing me. How is this so hard?

785: Becomes trapped in Titan form. (Physical age: 12)

845: Regains human form. (Physical age: 12)

847: Enlists in the military. (Physical age: 14)

850: Graduates from the military. (Physical age: 17)

Ymir is shown to have visibly aged during her time in training. And even if she "reverted to 17", that STILL means she is over 70 years old.

17 - 3 = 14

17 - 5 = 12

60 + 17 = 77

I am not sure how much more explicit I can be in spelling this out.

Ymir is officially documented by multiple sources (character bios on anime's website, character bio in the official guidebook) as being physically 17. She has now revealed that she has an extra 60 years tacked onto this, in which she did not age.

Harostar (talk) 21:49, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

You are assuming the 12 and the physical ages. Nowhere does it state them except that she appears 17 how much clearer can I make it? Rkbrumbelow (talk) 21:52, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

And how much more clear can I make it?

Official Anime Website Bio: 17 years old

Official Guidebook Bio: 17 years old

These are official numbers. They do not include her 60 years in Titan form.

60 + 17 = 77

Harostar (talk) 21:56, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

And how do you know they do not account for it, further if they do her age is 77, not 70+ or 63+ You are not even consistant in your age placement. Doesn't matter, I give up. You can claim she is 90. Fact of the matter is we only can account for 63 years everyyhing else is supposition. I have better things to do though than try and teach you simple hermeneutics. Rkbrumbelow (talk) 22:03, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Official source:

http://www.shingeki.tv/character/#11

Lists her as being 14 when she enlisted.

Lists her as graduated when she is 17.

Therefore, if she was 14 in 847 and 17 in 850, she must have been 12 in 845 when she regained human form because that is how math works.

Also, as a note, someone being 77 would be someone that is 70+.

Harostar (talk) 22:05, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Just passing by; the anime website has removed the characters' ages as far as my poor eye and Google Translator can tell, they refer to events with years now. So we're back to square one... I actually suggest putting it as 'Unknown' or not put it at all if possible. I don't like guessing, not proven facts shouldn't be in an article, and having +60/+70 is equally bad. For once, we don't even know whether we should consider the time she spent as a Titan since she didn't age during that time.

17:48, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

That's already been taken into account. Her physical age is separated from her actual age in that it says Age: ___ (Appears 17). Also, the events of Shingeki have always been counted with years. Nothing's changed. Chris (talk) 18:25, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'm talking about the anime website, on the character's page it used to say 'Joined 104th training squad at the age of XX', now it says 'Joined 104th training squad in year XXX'. Basically, the information about Ymir being 17 is now gone, which was one of the main arguments used in the discussion above, if I'm reading right. 18:50, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

While that may be so, that was mainly to appease Rk, which didn't work out anyway. The math portion of Ymir's age still holds up in the face of both the anime and the manga. Chris (talk) 01:10, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

They removed the ages, huh? Ah, well. I could still think we can make an estimate that her true age is greater than 70 years old, since we have a baseline of 60 years in Titan form, a documented 5 years since returning to human form, and her physical appearance placing her in her late teens. Various statements she's made show she had a life prior to being trapped in Titan form (her narration in ch. 40, for example).

How does my latest edit look? I tried to account for the fact we know she's been alive for decades, while also taking into account we don't know her true age and she's physically still young. --Harostar (talk) 07:17, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

A little too long for my taste but it works, I guess ;o 09:07, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

Titan name
I was gonna add Ymir's Titan name in japanese, and for that, I had to look up for a raw. It turns out that her name doesn't seem to be Dancing Titan. The raw says 踊る巨人 (Odoru Kyojin) where the scanlated version says "The dancing titan", and Odoru is used as a verb, not an adjective. This is not the case with Colossal (超大型), Armored (鎧の) and Female-Type, Woman-shape or Female-ish (女型の). Hence, what I think is that "The Titan is going to dance" would be a more fitting translation. So we cannot have any definitive name for Ymir's Titan form, because nobody has ever called her with any name other than "Ymir".  h fc 2 X  00:34, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Due to the fact that it's more of a verb, isn't the term "to dance" or "dance" more appropriate? (though I myself can't say for sure about this one) "Dance Titan" is also another possibility since it seems to use the basic form of the verb. What does everyone else think? We can also just mention that in her trivia to avoid the hassle of changing it, and outline how the term is more of a localised translation, while mentioning the original Japanese meaning (similar to Levi's Trivia and the meaning behind his title "Captain/Heichou") but up to you.--DementedP (talk) 03:59, September 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Then, is it even a name of her Titan form? Wasn't it just saying that she is going to 'dance', aka fight those regular Titans? It would be extremely awkward to have the name as 'The Titan is going to dance', no matter how accurate the translation is. 07:14, September 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah pretty much, although again, we could always just mention it as an unofficial name (similar to Eren's Titan form that's nicknamed as "Rogue Titan" or even the odd case of the "Smiling Titan). I mean, sure we can just call her "Ymir" and her Titan form but it's still up to you guys. EDIT- You can have a look at Eren and Ymir's Trivia section as I've just edited them and see how they look. Is that alright for now? (it's easy to remove anyway if we really have to) --DementedP (talk) 07:59, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Character/Profile image
Has anyone considered changing Ymir's character image? She looks so tanned in the current one because of the shade. When i first saw this i actually thought she was dark skinned turns out she was pretty light skinned :|

Not like it matters alot.. but it had been bugging me for a while.

122.62.65.37 06:48, November 7, 2013 (UTC) anon
 * I couldn't care less about her skin color, but I agree it's not the best pic of her. The only problem is that the anime hasn't made her justice, so it's pretty difficult to get a better pic for her. I suspect that Ilse's Notebook OVA will include new shots of Ymir.  h fc 2 X  07:13, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

There isn't a better one as far as I know 11:13, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

Ymir's name
Ymir also means "A Mythical Giant" as an Norwegian name and is most often used for boys. 173.63.250.100 12:13, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's already pointed in the trivia section. And yes, Ymir was the father of the frost giants.  h fc 2 X  18:50, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

The Theft
So the question has come up about Ymir's statement that she "stole" the Titan's power. There seems to be some confusion about her meaning in this, and when exactly it happened. I put forth that her statement does not mean the killing of Marcel, based on several pieces of information we have about Ymir.

The first factor we need to consider Ymir's actions. We know that she spent the two years between the fall of Wall Maria and her enlistment deep within the Interior. Her second major action was enlisting upon learning about Historia, with the intention of finding her. She vaguely admits on several occasions she wants to keep Historia close for her own reasons, and while we know she has romantic feelings we also have her statement/confession.

She states she befriended Historia with the intention of using her as a bargaining chip, to save her own life. While we know Ymir is not above manipulation, we have to also look at her interactions with Reiner and Bertolt prior to learning about Marcel. She outright states that they will kill her, and Reiner doesn't mince words in agreeing with her prediction. So we know there is bad blood already there, even before she learns how she ended up regaining her human awareness. Afterwards, her behavior towards Reiner and Bertolt changes with her ending up being willing to sacrifice herself to help them.

These actions suggest her confession to Historia was genuine, in that she did indeed cross the Warriors' people 60 years ago. Based on knowing she does indeed believe she will be killed, her hiding within the Interior and seeking out Historia matches her statements. She does all this without knowing she's killed one of their number. The theft she mentions makes sense as a crime sufficient to make her fear for her life.

That is my take on things, at least. Harostar (talk) 04:16, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

Let us consider Hange's theory however. The fact that Ymir DID regain her human form, and that there is in fact only one way to regain that human form which we know of, consuming one who has the power. If she knows of the group that has that power, the only group we know has that power, then logically she can deduce the only group she could have done it too even if she can't remember the exact individual she ate. Ymir is already good at deduction and finding things out in any event, that she found and knew who HIstoria was despite living like a street rat demonstrates as such. This makes more sense to me then her worrying about a crime that happened 60 years ago. The timeline matches, because however we slice it Ymir could only have been on the run these last 5 years due to her being previously mindless, the time when she stole/ate Marcel's power, which strikes me as too much of a coincidence. Her confession to HIstoria is also vague enough on when this theft would have occured, none of the translations I've seen says exactly 60 years ago, only a long time and 5 years could be considered a long amount of time in my view as well. Hange's explaination therefore would line up with everything we currently know and be the most complete picture as to what exactly happened.

Edit: I've looked back on chapter 47 again. Consider this, what is the first thing Bert asks Ymir? It's 'Do you remember who you ate?' Not 'do you remember you ate one of our comrades?' This phrasing basically says Bert already knows she knows she ate SOMEONE, she just doesn't know who exactly, and the only reason that would be significant as her later statement shows was that it was 5 years ago, the time when she woke up. And from there she deduces it was one of their comrades, ie not just someone whose part of the same group but someone they knew and worked with personally. KrimzonStriker (talk) 05:03, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

True, there is a lot of mystery still as to exactly what happened 60 years ago. One flaw I see in your argument, however, is assuming that Ymir knew how it was that she returned to human form. She admits to Eren in chapter 46 that there's a lot she doesn't know or understand about their power. In terms of the two possibilities, assuming she already knew HOW Titan Shifting is passed along is a further stretch than assuming she stole something in the past. We already have a major piece of evidence that there's something that could be stolen -- Eren's flashback of being injected by Grisha. --Harostar (talk) 05:22, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

But that counter in turn is extremely vague on what she does and doesn't know. And look back on my previous edit in her conversation with Bert. I've already proven she DOES know how Titan power is passed, because the only reason she would remember she ate someone when Bert talked about it, out of all the possible random people she could have eaten over the last 60 years, she goes back to the one 5 years ago, when she woke up, and the only reason that death would have been significant/related to her is that she knew its because she ate that person she woke up. And how is Grisha's injection 'stealing' power? Stealing implies you took something from someone else. Wouldn't the injection fall under the category of creating the power? We don't know how Grisha came about that injection, he could have made it in the basement for all we know. At the same time, why would Ymir bother stealing a power that was imperfect, that left her in a mindless nightmare for 60 years ? We'd have to speculate she didn't know it was imperfect, and that in turn is a very big stretch to make isn't it? KrimzonStriker (talk) 05:36, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, you're over-thinking that conversation. You are incorrect about it proving she knew, as there's nothing that establishes it in the conversation. Prior to him asking, the only things we know for certain that Ymir knew was two things: She woke up five years ago, and Bertolt was outside Wall Maria around the same time. So when he asks a point-blank question, it is not a stretch for her to put two and two together. I honestly think her already knowing the secret of Shifting five years prior is less likely, since that's a pretty significant secret.

We know that 60 years ago, something happened that resulted in Ymir and at least one other member of her people being turned into Titans. Her statements point to it being very deeply personal, since she talks about "dying" for the happiness of others and how living as herself is her revenge.

The Grisha connection should be obvious. It establishes a physical element of the Titan's power, whether a formula on paper or a vial that could be injected.

That all said, I suppose it's fair to say that her transgression is vague enough. Perhaps we can find a good way to word things to leave it ambiguous, in that SOMETHING huge happened. --Harostar (talk) 06:55, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

But then WHAT puts two and two together? Looks at the order of the conversation. She doesn't remember eating people. But then she associates eating people with waking up 5 years ago. And she didn't even realize it had anything to do with Bert and Reiner up to that point when she said as much by asking Bert if that person was his comrade. The only thing that would connects those assumptions is that something has to tie that person to Reiner and Bert that would make him their comrade, and what ties them to one another is their titan shifting powers.

And based on your reasoning even IF she didn't know about the power before her awakening, she would still have to make the connection by that point in the conversation. And if she can make that connection then why couldn't she have made it 5 years ago? Unless you can give me a reason why she associates a death 5 years ago, which she doesn't even remember as I recall, and then tie that to Bert and Reiner if she has NO idea what caused her to wake up in the first place? She was wandering around for 60 years, Bert could have been referring to any number of people she could have eaten during that time and yet she immediately goes back to thinking she ate someone 5 years ago when she woke up? And also, what in turn sounds more logical? That she's referring to the incident 5 years ago, which IS an act of stealing their power in and of itself I might add, or a wide range of speculation of what might have happened 60 years ago which could only have resulted in Ymir stealing an imperfect power that turned her into a mindless Titan, with no explaination as to why it was imperfect or why she wouldn't know it was?

That extra Titan in the OVA that knew Ymir only confirms to me that wherever Ymir was from the people there were turned into mindless titans, just like with Connie's village, in my mind because now we have TWO mindless Titans from the same place which is a pretty big coincidence. I could speculate that she tried to sacrifice herself to save them or something only for it to result in failure. But that's my point, all that happened 60 years ago is pure specuation, while what we have now is a credible explaination by Hange, based on her own critical analysis of the convesation I might add, that lines up with everything we currently know with no notable contradictions.

I initially thought so as well with Grisha believe it or not, until Hange's theory provided me with an alternative. Because the one thing that contradicts the Grisha connection is that the Ymir was a MINDLESS Titan, versus the full titan-shifting abilities given to Eren. And we have no evidence Bert or Reiner's village have such a capability to turn people into Mindless Titans like the Beast Titan can. And what's more likely, that they DO have the capacity to turn people into mindless Titans or that Ymir simply knows how to transfer the Titan Shifting Power? Because what is a 'secret' for the main cast can easily be common knowledge outside of the walls or the government conspiracy, and that has been your only argument thus far, that it was a secret but you CAN'T know that and thus cannot logically contradict what I'm saying with the evidence we have so far. And I KNOW it isn't UNKNOWN to people outside the wall because Reiner demonstrated by trying to get a Titan to eat Eren. So I can prove the knowledge is known beyond the walls, and yet you can't prove it's a 'secret knowledge' outside of the Walls at this point.

I think my logic works pretty well, I can't find a hole in it that's outright contradicted or isn't a point that isn't logically based on the evidence we currently have. But if this argument doesn't convince you, then how about we just cut out the steal from Annie, Reiner, and Bert's village part and just say "Growing up in the world beyond the walls an unknown incident occured which caused Ymir to turn into a Titan and wander aimlessly for 60 years" or something like that? KrimzonStriker (talk) 09:18, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

First and foremost, calm down.

When we consider Ymir and Bertolt's conversation, we need to take the time to consider the parties involved. It is simple for Ymir to put together that his question is a personal one, based upon what we see of Bertolt's personality and behavior. He rarely speaks up at all, and expresses little sympathy or interest in anyone besides Reiner. As such, if he comes out and blatantly confronts someone, it is a personal matter.

In terms of when she makes the connection exactly, we cannot be certain. However, during that conversation she gains new pieces of information she did not have before. She learns she ate their comrade just before she woke up, and Bertolt states that it was "the same" for them as well. Prior to that, we have no evidence that she knew what happened to her. Afterwards, she has more information to work with.

Beyond that, in terms of Hange's theory based on the conversation.....again....no evidence of what Ymir knew prior to Bertolt confronting her. Hange puts together what Reiner knew, and what likely happened to Ymir.

In terms of Ymir's actions prior to the series, I am not convinced her fear is related to Marcel's death. One thing to examine is her choice of phrasing when she tells Historia. She tells her "a long time ago", but if the event coincided with the destruction of Wall Maria that is an odd way to phrase it. It is a recent event for the entire cast, being the start of all their troubles and people refer to it as something recent. Isayama is very clever in his use of language and how he chooses to phrase things. So Ymir's choice to reference stealing "a long time ago" from Reiner and Bertolt's /people/ is unusual if she merely means Marcel's death.

I suppose we can simply reference it in a neutral fashion, since the fact she stole it is so central to her motivations. Let me see if I can find a good way to phrase things. --Harostar (talk) 09:59, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

And in terms of the knowledge being common, I think again we need to look at behavior of characters. Reiner and Bertolt will not explain themselves, not in the least bit even though they clearly feel justified in their actions. Ymir believes (and Reiner agrees) that she will be killed for stealing from them. We also know that Reiner states the Coordinate was stolen from them as well. So what we have is a picture of a group that possesses a special Power, keeps many secrets from outsiders, and is willing to commit mass murder or genocide to protect these secrets and powers.

Ymir, being an outsider, is unlikely to have access to the same information provided to highly-trained agents such as Reiner, Bertolt, and Annie. Again, we need to recall that she admits her knowledge of her powers is lacking. The information she demonstrates is Political and Social, versus the information about Shifting which we could call a Military Secret. So we cannot base what she knows on what Reiner and Bertolt know, since they come from different groups and have very clearly demonstrated differences in their level of knowledge and ability. --Harostar (talk) 10:10, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

If I'm using caps it's not an expression of excitment, it was just a convinent way to highlight specific points as I thought out my argument. If that's alarming you I will try to cut down on it and use some of the other, less convinent but less blatant tools to emphasize those specific points.

Bert's personality and behavior are also covers and lies as I recall, because while he did express disinterest in the lives he took he also later revealed he does care about what he's done and that he does in fact care about all the comrades he's made. And look at Reiner, he's completely absorbed in his cover as well. Or Annie and how she spared Armin, or went on her laughing fit that had everyone in a stupor looking at her. You can't know exactly what to expect from them. Now this might just be me, but if I had the revalation that Bert was some secret agent who was willing to do just about anything and he asks me something about what I know, I would have assumed he's just doing a standard interrogation for information, not that it had any personal significance to him, and Ymir's speech pattern to me indicates as such as she simply answers the question. If I considered it an uncharecteristic and personal question from Bert, and I had no prior knowledge as to as to why that would be the case, I would have have been surprised and asked Bert to clarify why he would want to know or why that would matter.

I'm just saying you have to take into account the timing of what she says when  she says it. As you said she learns afterwards that it was Bert and Reiner's comrade. Yet she also says she does not remember eating people or the events around them, and she has 60 years of history to have potentially eaten anyone. She cannot know  this by that point and yet she immediately assumes she did  eat someone 5 years ago, and then makes the connection to Bert and Reiner off of that. She made connections prior to having the information she would need to do so which means its reasonable to assumme she had prior knowledge on her part.

And you still haven't even gone over my points about if the event happened 60 years ago. Because what we do know is contradictory under those circumstances, where whatever power Ymir stole turned her into a mindless Titan, which doesn't seem like a power worth stealing or using on herself from my view. That 60 years later they'd still be on the lookout for her, assuming they knew she was even alive or that she'd come out of her stupor if that was the case? Nothing in this scenario makes real sense at this point.

Unusual, but as you said a clever choice of phrasing on the authors part if he wanted to say, keep the reveal of Titan transfer for something to occur later. LIke I said, I wouldn't have thought about all this until  Hange made her revelation. And everything fits based on the timeline of events we're currently aware of, when Ymir truly went on the run and tried to use HIstoria, and once again however we slice it when Ymir ate Marcel it was  an actual act of stealing their power, not an event that we're assuming happened 60 years ago and have no details on. All I'm really saying is that we have a plausible explaination right now in comparison to suppostion based on the evidence we currently have, and until new information comes along I'd rather go with the plausible explaination.

All of which fits because the pattern of behavior can be justified under the Marcel scenario. She ate one of their members, which in turn severely hampered and compromised their operation, and in turn would justify whatever Ymir's fears are of retaliation given what the group has demonstrated its capable of. Consider how the government disposes of people who are inconvinent to them at the drop of a hat. And Bert and Reiner don't bring up any crime 60 years ago. All they ask about or build upon is what she did to Marcel and what her motivations might be. In fact, by asking how long she was wandering for they demonstrate they don't  have any idea of Ymir's actions prior to meeting her 5 years ago now that I think about it.

Yes Ymir admits there are parts of the story she is not fully aware of, but you can't count out knowledge of things related to Titan powers/transformation from Ymir either. Consider what Connie later says, he points to how Ymir, along with Bert and Reiner, must have known about the true nature of the Titans because of how they dissuaded/tried to get his mind off what happened to his village and how Historia explains it was just Ymir's way of sparing him the pain. In that case, then anything Ymir may or may not know is a complete variable in terms of likelihood of knowing it, and you in turn can't say Titan transfer is something that she wouldn't know. And as you've demonstrated, Ymir has had prior knowledge of some pretty big secrets, more then anything the main cast or what you and I know between her knowledge of HIstoria or of the reach Bert and Reiner's people may have or about the Beast Titan, so the difference between the knowledge she has and the knowledge Bert, Reiner, and Annie have is much smaller, and you can't know where that difference ends or begins or what they entail, correct? Given our lack of knowledge of the world beyond the walls what information is known and what isn't cannot be ruled out.

Anyway, if you really aren't convinced by this point then I'm willing to compromise with a vague statement of what happened 60 years ago and leave it at that, it's basically the truth as far as we know in any event. I could make the edit and you can look it over and see if it works or not. KrimzonStriker (talk) 18:40, June 21, 2014 (UTC)