Talk:Hange Zoë

Gender
The infamous "skirt" illustration can be found (in low resolution) at http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/mstkkt-shingeki/imgs/4/b/4b07005f.jpg (there's also a close-up at http://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/k/kajika_eps/20130504/20130504234013.gif) and is part of a joke preview for Volume 6 of the manga, depicting how Hanji views her/his relationship with the Titans. It does not take place in-world (as the presence of the truck attests) and part of the joke is the ambiguity surrounding Hanji's gender (it's a typically Japanese gender-confusion joke suggesting that Hanji the Man becomes Hanji the Damsel in Distress when Titansd are involved). There is no in-world illustration of Hanji in civvies, and clearly this is not intended as backtracking: Word of God says Hanji's sex is ambiguous, and thus Hanji's sex is ambiguous, regardless of what we'd all (or at least I'd...) like it to be.

Mind you, I'm not averse to maintaining the third person feminine pronouns in the article, especially since it looks like the anime staff will be making Hanji a woman in their adaptation. But we really ought to acknowledge somewhere that in the original manga the topic is very much open for debate.

220.157.194.219 14:04, May 16, 2013 (UTC)Enamelthyst

The trivia makes no sense either, give me a trustworhty link with the interview and we'll decide after that. For now I'm removing all these ambiguous things >_>

Actually, the way we have it now ("Female (Anime)") is probably OK: not confusing, but not misleadingly authoritative-sounding. The "interview" isn't really: it all stems from a Q&A session with fans, which can be found archived at http://blog.livedoor.jp/isayamahazime/archives/4388712.html. (the question in, er, question is down towards the end), but it's grown into quite the legend online: if you check http://shingeki-kyojin.com/archives/25745454.html you will see "性別：??" ("Gender: ??") and a bit of Japanese knowledge (or Google Translate) will reveal that the latter portion of the article basically says that most people think Hanji's a woman, but it's not entirely clear. It's also referenced in the Wikipedia article at http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/進撃の巨人 (under "ハンジ・ゾエ"). Now you can find a rather defensive rebuttal of the whole controversy (in English!) at http://papermoon2.tumblr.com/post/49396124889/wow-okay-then-people-are-really-taking-that-out, but I'm disinclined to fully agree with this person based on the fact that "Isayama draws Hanji in her civilian clothes" isn't actually what Isayama did: he was drawing "her" in a fictional reality existing only as a joke. So his original answer might be a troll, or the gag next volume preview might be a troll, or (which is most likely) they are both trolls, and only Isayama knows what Hanji's "true" gender is meant to be. Thus, as far as I'm concerned, the question is still open, and until Isayama makes himself clear (or Hanji changes outfits in the manga) it is premature to commit to a gender for the manga version of the character.

220.157.194.219 16:56, May 16, 2013 (UTC)Enamelthyst

Thanks a lot for all those references! After reading all of this I'd say it's to early to indeed confirm her as female or male in the manga. Though I would refrain to use the word ambiguous since it can also mean both female and male rather than "unknown"..

So, what do the admins think about this?

Thinking back into the past, this all started when someone said Hanji's gender was ambiguous, which I do not believe without evidence. No proof, other than what eyes can see and I think Hanji's a girl. Besides, if Isayama really did pull these "ambiguous" stunts like with Rico and Ymir, I have a lower opinion of him. If not, then all is well I suppose.

Jo4n (talk) 01:16, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, after doing some perverted reason, I can confirm Hanji Zoe is a girl, meaning my fanboism can continue *O*

If Hanji's article gets corrected to a gender-neutral state again, please consider using singular gender-neutral pronouns such as xe or ze; using "they" as a singular pronoun is leading contributors to write things like "they are" instead of "they is", and unless the new speculation about Hanji is that Hanji is a collective of many different discrete identities and should be addressed in the plural, it would be better practice, and more easily kept consistent to address Hanji in the singular.

If Hanji is to be labeled gender-neutral, I suggest we declare all other characters gender-neutral until otherwise specified (if Hanji's manner of speaking and appearance isn't enough to infer her as female, it's hardly fair to allow those things to allow us to infer genders for the other characters). I understand the point of view of the person who made the social-awareness note on the article page that I removed (please feel free to add it to the talk page!) and I am not trying to be hurtful or to erase anyone's identity; I just don't see the point in promoting an internet joke (which Hanji's gender has arguably become; the shingeki-kyojin site linked earlier is a fansite enjoying the richness of Shingeki's online culture) as fact on Hanji's article page.

I am open to hearing more from Isayama-sensei on the subject; however, in reading the manga (in Japanese, of course; as much as I appreciate the hard work and love scanlators put in to creating something that can be shared with a wider community, scanlations should not be treated as a primary source) I thought it was manifestly obvious from the way Hanji speaks that she is female, and I was surprised to discover it was in question at all.

Best regards!

-- very (talk) 23:52, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

"I suggest we declare all other characters gender-neutral until otherwise specified (if Hanji's manner of speaking and appearance isn't enough to infer her as female, it's hardly fair to allow those things to allow us to infer genders for the other characters)."

I mostly just want to address the "internet joke" and the fact that the author has never given Hanji gendered pronouns to begin with. When a character is specified gender-neutral by the author (or the gender is intentionally left ambiguous by the author) that it's important to respect that and not assign them a gender. It's not about not inferring things, it's about respecting the author's decisions about the character and also respecting marginalized trans* people who have so few characters to relate to. When you erase a character's gender-identity or lack thereof, you're harming real people who can relate to that character. Being trans* / non-binary is not just a Western culture thing, but has been present in many cultures around the world. Saying that it's an "internet creation" is false and hurtful.

On the subject of singular they pronouns,  "they are" is a proper and grammatically correct usage. It's a little unusual when a person is not used to it being used consistently for one person (in reality we use it all the time; "that driver was terrible! what were they thinking?), but the more we are exposed to something, the more familiar it becomes. "Hir" is a pronoun that assigns a person an identity, whereas "they" leaves the identity ambiguous. Since we haven't been given an actual identity, only "they are not x," hir pronouns are not technically correct.

24.17.188.66 01:04, June 12, 2013 (UTC) Eli

Gender identity itself is not a joke. When I say "internet joke", I am specifically referring to the fandom's treatment of Hanji's gender in general as "ohoho it's funny not to say, amirite?" I absolutely recognise and welcome a spectrum of identities. However, the part I am not sold on is that Hanji hirself is such a character. Hanji's treatment in canon is not unique to Hanji; there is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about it (Japanese doesn't use terms like "him" and "her" the same way English does when speaking about others, and one's own use of language and manner of speaking can and often is extremely gendered; a reader could read a page of dialogue without identified speakers and be able to get an idea of what gender, age, and "general personality" can be ascribed to each speaker just from the way they talk). I am not being hyperbolic or trying to make a point by saying we should rescind references to gender on other characters if we do so to Hanji. What I am saying is that there is nothing in the text that sets Hanji hirself apart, and that by doing so we're creating artificial divisions in the way we treat Hanji compared to the way we treat other characters, which is the part I personally find offensive.

The alteration to "it" a few days ago absolutely shocked and horrified me; that's appalling treatment for a sentient being. "They" is perfectly fine in theory, but has been accompanied by plural treatment (and often encourages plural use by people who are not familiar with "they" as a singular pronoun), which is why I feel something more obviously singular (and less confusing!) like "xe" or "ze" would serve the same purpose much more adroitly.

"Xe", "ze" and the like do not necessarily ascribe an identity; many people who do not describe themselves as male or female choose to use them instead, of course, but it certainly can be used to refer to people of unknown gender, or to speak about a person when the speaker doesn't want to ascribe a gender to that person.

(The page was edited while I was writing this out; sorry if my responses are a little repetitive and disjointed.)

Your example I suspect is a regional thing (it would never occur to say they in that situation, since only one person would have been driving the car), but if it's clear to the majority of users then that is the best solution. I often use "xie" myself (though I used "ze" here because it's more commonly used) because of the greater clarity of using a specifically singular pronoun; using "they" to refer to a single person (especially when paired with constructions like "they are" instead of "they is") can be confusing and cause ambiguity, especially when discussing events involving multiple people. This comes down to a style issue, however, and should probably be decided wiki-wide (along with things like American or British English, Oxford comma or no Oxford comma, etc etc), along with the dread decision of which sets of name translations to use (all of the official ones have their issues, imho, but I'll leave that discussion to others since I have no dog in that race :))

As a personal aside, I would be very happy and grateful to Isayama-sensei if Hanji is someone who does not ascribe hirself to the usual gender binary; as you have said, more representation, especially in popular media, is desperately needed and wanted!

Thank you so much for bringing the dialogue here to the talk page; I feel like we can have a productive discussion here instead of letting it spill into the article page, and I'm very pleased to have had the opportunity to talk with you.

Best regards!

-- very (talk) 01:27, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

ETA:

I just wanted to say what a relief it was to find that we're on the same page about this (genuine concern about gender identity instead of people making a "joke"; I admit that at first I was unsure if your comments about awareness of gender identity in the article were genuine or an attempt to be inflammatory, since they were made in the article itself and not in the talk page). Identifying Hanji's gender is not crucial to the thrust of the article (I'm avoiding saying it's not important, because it's an important part of anyone's identity, but hir history, actions, and concrete stats are really what the article is about). While I personally did not think there was any reason for confusion and thought that the "lawl Hanji's an it" movement was coming from a place of hurtful ignorance based on hearsay and telephone translations, there is absolutely no harm done in using neutral pronouns to refer to Hanji in particular, or to anyone else.

I have to step out for awhile so future replies may be slow, but thank you very much for taking the time to discuss this with me.

-- very (talk) 01:50, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

My two cents on the whole Hanji gender thing. I believe the official anime art, which I have since edited into the entry, show that Hanji is physically female when body type in compared to characters such as Sasha and Ymir. There is also no real evidence outside of questions about the nature of the Japanese language as it relates to gendered pronouns, that suggests Hanji identifies differently from biological sex. I understand that real life issues concerning gender identity are very important, but frankly it seems as though people have sort of started running with this issue to a degree that really has no business in the character entry.

I propose, until there is evidence to the contrary, we simply go with Hanji's physical gender as presented in the official artwork. The anime shows a woman's body in the standard of how women are drawn in the series, and the manga portrayal does not have an adam's apple as the confirmed male characters do. Therefore, it seems that people need to simply go with the simplest explanation. Everything else is just fanon guessing, and has as little place in the character entries as shipping or fanon theories.

Harostar (talk) 07:25, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Harostar; there simply is nothing in the manga or in the anime to suggest that Hanji identifies as gender neutral, gender neuter, bigender, etc, and I personally feel it is othering to isolate Hanji and not any of the other characters assumed by fandom to be female who speak in a similar fashion and are drawn/animated in a similar way.

I liked the Trivia section you added; it acknowledges the issue fandom's made of it in a neutral way.

-- very (talk) 07:35, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Alternative pronoun sets like ze/hir and ey/em are neutral in nature but they strongly connote the identity OF neutrality as opposed to singular and plural "they" which connote both a lack of contextual knowledge and neutral identity based on context.

Using singular they pronouns in the wiki includes gender neutral as a possible identity without excluding the possibility of Hansi being female.

As for the trivia that was added and the newest comments to the chat section, the implication that someone having/not having an adams apple or breasts makes them one gender or another is harmful to trans/non-binary people. Secondary sex characteristics are not an indication of gender, especially in the case of neutrality where there is no matching set of sex characteristics. And why are we basing their gender on breasts when they could potentially be intersex and therefore also not designated female at birth? The simplest explanation is that for now we have no idea, the creator has not provided us with an answer so anything is possible, so why not use pronouns that leave it open-ended? To use female pronouns when we don't have enough information "because it's easy" is damaging to trans people who already get erased and ignored and misgendered because it's easy on a regular basis.

Making assumptions about someone's gender based on their biology when we have been presented with ambiguity is unfair.

71.231.53.102 08:06, June 12, 2013 (UTC) Z

While I understand the concern about real world implications, the debate is once more simply one of fan theories that has no evidence in the series. I am well aware of the issues concerning transgendered people, and people who identify outside of the gender binary spectrum, as I am friends with several such people. The issue here is that people are projecting theories within the fandom as something which is fact, when it does not belong outside of the trivia section.

Hanji is portrayed as biologically being female, and at the moment we have no evidence within the canon itself to suggest identifying as anything else. That is very typical of the cast, as frankly the only person with a confirmed sexual orientation is Ymir. There has been no discussion within the series itself about Hanji having an identity different from biological sex, and we have no official information (as with Ymir) to suggest anything different in terms of identity. As such, the theory of Hanji as anything else is a fan theory and not a fact.

My question is this: Why does a character need to be addressed and shown explicitly as female to be acknowledge as such, when the evidence is heavily in favor of such?

Harostar (talk) 08:24, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

The important thing is that Isayama-sensei left this character's gender open-ended. It is not as though every character needs to be shown as female to be acknowledged as female, but when their gender is treated ambiguously by the writer it's important that we respect that decision as readers and not assign a gender, otherwise we are erasing non-binary people.

So why not leave the trvia where it stands and use the ambiguous, fully-inclusive pronouns in respect of the creator's words and in respect to non-binary people who might wish to indentify with this character? If you have trans* friends I'm sure you can understand the importance of even the smallest representation and how big of a difference it can make when they are a nearly invisivible group, even more so in the case of non-binary trans* people. Since the debate is open and we have no evidence one way or the other, why not use the most inclusive pronouns? Singular they implies neither a neutral nor binary identity and simply leaves room for ambiguity.

71.231.53.102 08:51, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to make one thing clear, in manga (Japanese, not translated), Hanji is not referred with a specific gender (since they usually make this clear) or we're basing this whole thing on the interview session which seems like a joke to begin with?

In either way, not that it matters much, the thought of Hanji being a male never crossed my mind while reading the manga and that was before 'she' was introduced in anime. However, I personally think that there is no problem with following the anime. They make it clear enough that she is a female and I highly doubt they'd do so if the author wanted otherwise, right? The adaption is quite faithful, after all.

09:08, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

It seems everyone is basing this around a single interivew. Hanji is not referred to using specific gender pronouns in the original Japanese, but what people seem to miss is that Hanji is not unique in this respect. Gender is almost never mentioned, for example Armin is never referred to as being male but no one doubts his gender.

Anonymous commenter, because there really isn't any ambiguity. Hanji is not handled any differently from the majority of the cast. Very few characters are referred to using gendered pronouns, or otherwise have their gender blatently discussed. There is one single incident with a question, which Isayama did not answer. That was several years ago, and since then we have seen plenty of evidence of biological sex. At least just as much as Armin or Rico, who people have no questions about concerning gender.

The simple fact is that we have no evidence within the series to suggest Hanji identifies as anything different. And as Very stated above, it really is Othering to insist that Hanji must be different from other characters handled in the exact same fashion simply because the other characters look closer to their expected gender. Hanji is not a particularly feminine in looks, with strong features and lack of concern over a messy appearance. However, the anime portrays feminine body language and behavior.

There is no erasing of non-binary people or denial of the existence of trans characters. If anyone is closer to that, I would say it would be Nanaba who could be read in many different directions. The whole debate over Hanji stems from someone criticizing artwork because of a woman looking too manly, and the artist being avoidant in response. One amazing thing about Isayama's artwork and the series in general is the portrayal of women, with examples from very traditionally feminine Christa to androgynous Ymir and Hanji. Several of them have strong features that we tend to associate with being "masculine", and body types are realistic for how athletic they all are.

The long and short is that Hanji's gender identity is a matter of theorizing and headcanon for some fans. Hanji has not been portrayed any differently from most of the cast, so we need to realize that questioning gender identity because one character doesn't have "pretty" feminine features and not questioning a character addressed and handled the same because their features are more traditionally feminine is even more problematic.

Harostar (talk) 09:17, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

In that case, I'd personally agree with keeping her as a female till specifically proven otherwise. 09:21, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. I really don't understand the need to make things so complicated.

1. Artwork portrays a female body structure.

2. Hanji uses feminine body language and behavior in the anime.

3. Hanji is not portrayed or addressed any differently than characters such as Armin, or the vast majority of secondary cast members.

4. Theories concerning Hanji being intersex, or transgendered, or non-binary are fan theories.

We have no evidence within the series canon about Hanji being anything different from what is right in front of our faces. There is no evidence that Hanji is intersex. There is no evidence that Hanji does anything to falsify a female body shape. There is no evidence that Hanji identifies differently. We can theorize as much as we like, but for the sake of factual information we need to stick to what we can confirm: Hanji is biologically female, as evidenced by anatomy. Hanji is a professional soldier and scientist, who doesn't care much about looks and gender is not taken into consideration because it has nothing to do with Hanji as the person who leads a squad or does SCIENCE!, or makes Levi think they have an "Abnormal" in their midst.

And one more point. Regardless of what might be in Hanji's pants, someone that behaves as a woman through mannerisms, body language, and socially-normative cues such as hair length and style.......would still be referred to as female because that is their identity.

Harostar (talk) 09:38, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that it matters a lot! It matters for a lot of people in a lot of ways. Having representation of a marginalized group is incredibly important. As for the anime, they do not make it clear and still consistently refer to Hanji in a deliberately neutral way. A female presentation and female body does not equal a female person. In fact, the feminization of Hanji's character in the anime could be a great thing for non-binary visibility, as it shows that not all non-binary people look typically androgynous and that some are really feminine or masculine presenting.

Hanji is handled different from the rest of the cast. The use of "that woman" (a common addressor and a poor translation from the original) is never used, instead it is replaced with their name or rank. Many of the other characters are seen in gendered barracks. Isayama has also been asked this question more than once in many interviews and has specifically kept this character ambiguous. It's not just one time, because fans simply don't ask just one time and leave something ambiguous and confusing and hard to understand alone.

As for whether Hanji is feminine-presenting or masculine-presenting, neither of those options affect their gender identity at all. I am not questioning their gender identity based on how they are drawn, that was never something I mentioned besides when "biological sex" was brought up. Please do not put words or ideas into my mouth.

Given that Isayama has not given Hanji a gender I cannot understand why we don't just leave it ambiguous and "unknown," why are we assigning them to female when we do not know and our only contrary evidence is "she looks female so she must be female"? Aren't theories that Hanji is female also fan-theories? Just because being cisgendered is more common doesn't make it the default.

All that I am saying is leave it ambiguous until we know better. I specifically mentioned ey/em hir/ze pronouns were not appropriate because they assigned an ambiguous gender identity, neither are female ones in the same way. I am NOT saying they are absolutely non-binary, I'm just suggesting it's a possibility we should be aware of and respect.

Also "And one more point. Regardless of what might be in Hanji's pants, someone that behaves as a woman through mannerisms, body language, and socially-normative cues such as hair length and style.......would still be referred to as female because that is their identity."

This is hardly the case and is EXTREMELY harmful. There are plenty of people who do all the things you mentioned and don't have a female gender indentity. Androgynous is not the only way of being gender-nuetral.

71.231.53.102 09:54, June 12, 2013 (UTC) Z

How about this, then. Does my current edit look better? I attempted to leave things neutral by avoiding any phrasing towards gender, and that includes the awkward "they" stuff because in terms of what we officially know.....well....we do not know anything beyond anatomical traits. Hanji is Female (?) because obviously we do not know anything about the mind behind the person. Every single one of us is making assumptions, and the whole debate would honestly be confusing to someone who is new to the fandom. We need to be cautious to present that while the series presents a character with the anatomical traits of a female, there is debate about gender identity. The issue I have with previous edits is that it presents the question of Gender Identity as being one addressed within canon to the newbie, rather than something that is a theory among the fanbase.

Harostar (talk) 10:05, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for being so passionate 71.231.53.102 in supporting a cause that you feel is correct. I appreciate your feelings toward keeping Hanji ambiugous, but there simply is not enough evidence to the contrary concerning keeping that way. It is obvious that everyone has different views about how to portray Hanji and Isayama's comment has muddled it even further.

To keep things even throughout, we must go with our best perceptions and use rational judgement when identifying these characters. If that information is CONCLUSIVELY proven wrong, then the situation can be easily remedied with an edit.

However, to modiy a page to ambiguity of which there is little support for, is something we cannot do. An example of a major changes we have made is in the new Eren Yeager page. I have read this manga always thinking his name was Jaeger and it pissed me off initially to think Yeager was the true name.Yet, Otsuka gave proof to the contrary and we changed all the pages affected. I would be more than happy to personally change Hanji to ambiguous IF there is evidence more than at the rpesent offered. Until then, please keep her female or you may be unable to edit Hanji's page as an anon any further.

Thank you.

Jo4n (talk) 10:12, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for chiming in on things. Hopefully, we can settle down and some concrete confirmation will eventually be released.

Don't get me wrong in my arguments, because I am not opposed to the concept of characters that are ambiguous or otherwise outside the so-called normal spectrum of gender and sexuality. It would be awesome, and in my head Nanaba is somewhere on the spectrum and left us too soon. I would likewise have no problem were we to learn that Hanji does identity as trans, or non-binary, because inclusion is awesome.

The issue I have is solely one concerning accuracy and avoiding confusion among people unfamiliar with the canon and various extra pieces of information floating around. Anatomical traits are all we have at the moment, in terms of official material. Harostar (talk) 10:23, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand how confusion is a bad thing in this instance. And harostar, anatomy belies nothing about gender identity, it is not official material related to this topic. Therefore we have nothing. Except maybe the interview.

I am also disappointed at the moderator's response and choice to equate name confusion with the erasure of a marginalized group. Also the implication that female is the default and anything nonbinary and nonfamiliar must be proven as an absolute before it will be considered is transphobic. Of course the assumption is all people are cis unless proven otherwise.

I'm also appalled by harostars comment, which was quoted by Z. As a trans man who wears skirts, makeup, is dfab, and has no intent to transition, your describing me. No, I do not identify as female. You do not have the right to assign a gender to me or anyone else, even if that is a fictional character. -

Repeat after me, Anonymous person. Please, please listen and stop with the accusations of erasure and transphobia.

Hanji being someone who is trans, or nonbinary, or anything else are pure fan speculation. They are unconfirmed theories people have come up with, and run with, and some people seem to be taking this as the gospel truth. There is no official confirmation. There are no offical statements concerning it. The issue has not been touched upon within the series, nor has it even remotely been touched since a single vague comment in March 2011.

The anime is an official source. The artwork from both the anime and the manga portray someone who is biologically female. There has been nothing within the source material to suggest anything other than biological sex, something common among the cast.

Understand that. Hanji is not the only one. People seem to have become obsessed with Hanji, while ignoring that the same can be applied to most of the cast. The arguments I have seen applied towards Hanji are true for Rico, for Armin, heck for people I think we can all agree about such as Reiner and Levi. Not referencing gender is normal for the series.

And until we have something more concrete, we need to keep theories on one side and only provide what is official. We can theorize as much as we want, and people are welcome to headcanon about Hanji to their heart's content. But for the purpose of providing accurate information to new fans, we need to be consistent in listing someone by their biological sex and implied gender until such time as there is official material otherwise.

As for my previous comment, I do apologize. However, again.....please understand that we are talking about something that is strictly a matter of fan speculation. Speculation and Theories are not Canon.

Harostar (talk) 13:15, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying they're trans, I'm asking not to be excluded from the possibilities. That is a form of erasure and transphobia. The default is not cisgender.

Hanji being female is also fanon speculation. Theories are not Canon.

They have been given no gender, implied or otherwise. Stop using biological sex as an argument. Its not. It's transphobic. It erases our right to identity that doesn't conform to our birth designations. It erases us. It erases me. Don't use that argument. Every time you put female it erases the slight chance I have at representation.

I'm out this is too painful.

Enjoy hurting trans people to keep your newbies from feeling confused for a minute or two (I'm not the only one)