Board Thread:Manga/@comment-27321453-20181206222153/@comment-27125793-20181212113308

Actionmanrandell wrote: Marco1995mega wrote: Actionmanrandell wrote: Marco1995mega wrote: Actionmanrandell wrote: Marco1995mega wrote: ErenZeke2020 wrote: I just realized that Eren's claim about the Ackerman power giving the user the experience of all other Ackermans may have a hole.

Mikasa is tough but Levi clearly has Titan killing skills that she doesn't. We have never seen her use his beyblade attack.

The only answer I can think of is that when the Ackerman power is activated, it gives the user a screen shot of the current accumulated skill level of the Ackerman clan, but the pathways are cut after that. Then Levi may have raised the bar on the Ackerman clans skill level while Mikasa was growing up. Eren said that the 'awakening' grants them the combat experience of all the previous Ackermans, but not the combat'' skill. '' There's a difference. Basically, it means they have the honed instincts of a veteran combatant but still need to acquire skills and techniques through training and personal battle experience. That's why Levi's a better Titan killer; he's fought them far more than her and has trained for longer. skill comes about via experience's so if it grants them the combat experience of all previous Ackermans than yes it does give combat skill. Perhaps to some extent, but not entirely. Skill comes through repeated training, because your body remembers the motions you make of a technique so well, it becomes reflex; muscle memory. However, the awakening does not give them the memories of previous Ackermans, but a sort instinctive knowledge of 'what might be best' in a situation, so it's still limited. After all, despite Mikasa catching him off guard, Bertolt still overwhelmed her temporarily. It gives Ackermans an advantage, true, plus the enhanced physical strength, but if they truly got all the combat skills and muscle memory of everybody before them, for example, Mikasa should've been the top at hand-to-hand combat in the 104th instead of Eren and Annie, or as ErenZeke2020 mentioned, there should've been little to no difference between Mikasa's and Levi's level of skill, and yet, there is. yea none of that is even remotely correct, 1 there is no such thing as muscle memory, our muscles have no memory capacity and its not actually the repeated motion that gives you skill. you repeat a motion and your brain creates links between your body and the neurons in your brain. when you activate those neurons it tells your body to respond to a given stimuli.

if all the ackermans are linked via pathways that once they awaken they awaken the accumulated experience of all past awakened ackermans than what i said would be 100% ACCURATE. if this happens the way eren explained than the moment this awakening happens would mean the ackermans brain would instantly create a bunch of neuropathways that would have instantly memorized the combat experience's of all the past awakened ackermans. this is an actual FACT.

we also see this happen the moment Mikasa awakened when her brain started firing off synapses and neurons.

our skill isn't housed in the body but housed solely in the  our synsapses and neurons.

the entire concept of the matrix was based on this fact

it doesn't matter how many repititions you do as like i said your muscles don't remember anything and the repeated motion doesn't actually make it easier to do said motion its the synapses and neurons firing in proper sucession that creates the reflex and the ability to do a motion easier.

and as i said experience is actually the most important factor in a fight. a martial artist who spends every waking minute learning techniques won't be a skilled fighter. its only through the actual experiences of fighting that develops a competant fighter.

the awakened ackerman gains the experiences of every other awakened ackerman and therfore there skill as well,

its the same thing with strength training, its not the weight lifting that develops strength

Evidence has shown that increases in strength occur well before muscle hypertrophy

muscle strength is first influenced by the inner neural circuitry, rather than by external physiological changes in the muscle size.

Previously untrained muscles acquire newly formed nuclei by fusion of satellite cells preceding the hypertrophy. Subsequent detraining leads to atrophy but no loss of myo-nuclei

when a body buidler or strength trainer has a long standing gap in the time he or she has worked out last and atrophy has kicked in, its easier for them to go back to the gym and train and reduse atrophy because the neurons in the brain force the previously developed fibers to activate and as such they can quickly rebuild any lost strength.

the major difference in the ackermans is that the awakened experiences would result in a bunch of neurons to be created,. these new neurons have the stored experience of all ackermans which is how mikasa was able to break the floor board, because she was tapping into the strength of all previous ackermans. again proving the fact that skill is bound in the experience not the repitition of any activity Thank you for giving a very comprehensive answer. However, I'm well aware that muscle memory is a misnomer; I know the body doesn't actually  'remember' anything. It was merely a way of getting the idea across. I also know about the subconscious neural pathways that allow us to perform instinctive actions. However, at the same time, you fail to realize that, in order to acquire skill, while it is thanks to these neural pathways that we acquire them, we still NEED to train and practice BEFORE they become subconscious. Also with weight training. You're right about the nuclei, but you still NEED to lift weights (or do anything else that tear your muscle fibers) to get those muscles. And when learning to walk, a baby still needs to CONSCIOUSLY practice the motions before they become subconscious.

I'm a judoka, and I tell you, if you told me that repeating a technique wasn't going to get me anywhere, I wouldn't be nearly as good as I am now. No martial artist would. Yes, experience in battle helps in the acquisition of fighting skill, but in the way that it hones and helps refine practiced skill that is already there; skill that you gain through training and, yes, repetition. Training develops a foundation and builds upon it, while battle experience adds further to it. If there is no foundation, combat experience it has little to nothing to build upon.

Now, I'm not saying that experience alone is worthless without training. Not at all. Like I said, even if it doesn't help develop refined fighting skills, it does help develop instincts that give you a sense of, as Levi said, 'knowing what to do', or more precisely, knowing where to hit your opponent to try and end the fight quickly. For example, between an experienced brawler and a trained martial artist who's only fought in a few tournaments, the odds are about 50:50, maybe a bit more in the MA's advantage. In this case, the MA has a more effective and refined fighting style, but the brawler has better instincts on knowing how to end a fight in one or two blows or gain a sudden advantage. For example, he will know to go for the jugular or the groin or some other vital area, or improvise with a makeshift weapon he found lying around, but even if he does land the blow and get the upper hand, he's most likely going to perform it with a, at the least, somewhat sloppy and crude execution. If the martial artist manages to do the same thing, he's most likely going to be faster about it, have less wasted movements, and be ready with a follow-up move.

The Ackermans are like the experienced brawler, initially at least. They have great instincts and reflexes with perhaps a slightly superior level of refinement in their fighting capabilities. However, Levi is much more practiced in killing Titans and has trained for longer, and thus Mikasa, who's also trained but less, is not as good as him, because he also developed this foundation through practice, building upon it through further practice, and enhanced it further with real, personal experience. At the same time, against Bertolt with superior martial arts training, let alone Annie, Mikasa would have a lot of trouble, maybe even lose. Battle experience helps tie all these techniques, maneuvers, and reflexes you've gained through training and practice into a viable fighting style, like with Annie. If there are none of the aforementioned technical prowess, then battle experience has nothing to build upon. Instead, it gives you some knowledge that becomes instinctive (still effective, though), and maybe teaches you how to throw a punch or two. As the saying goes, "practice makes perfect". The Ackermans gain the fighting experience, but none of the training that previous ones CONSCIOUSLY performed, and thus, the 'awakened' Ackermans also need to train to acquire and/or enhance their fighting skills.

Another issue is that you might be looking just a bit too deep into this. While everything you said about neurons and the nervous system is true, Isayama's probably not going to be that anal retentive about it. Not everything is going to be 100% real-world logical. I mean, it's not like Titans actually exist, and it's not like the Ackermans suddenly get super buff when the awakening increases their physical strength in a matter of seconds. I also have to contradict you on this part. They get their enhanced strength not from previous Ackermans, but by taking a bit of the Power of the Titans while still keeping their human form. your still wrong. actual scientists have debunked this. there is a group of scientists currently working on a system like the  matrix, they have stated on scientific journels that if you had a system like the matrix you would never have to train hundreds of hours to develop a physical skill. the system would create the neuropathways. and once you tried to do the activity those neurons would force your muscles to respond. you would initially have a time frame in which the activity would be effected by a lack of stamina but because the way muslces are activated you could quickly develop the stamina to do the activity with a few days to weeks of moderate exorcise.

the Neurons would force the muslces to activate, you would initially feel sore after the new physical activity but quickly acclimate. and since an adult human has already trained there body just by doing regular physical activity, you could easily develop the physical stamina. your reflexes are purely a result of snyapses and neurons firing. so the ability to fight would come instant, and like i said you would initially have stamina issues but the experts agree that that would be only the initial effect, you would acclimate with very little required actual physical activity and that physical training would only need to be moderate cardio

let me expand on what i am saying. i never once said they would instantly be expert Judoka. what i am saying, is that most of the work done in a physical activity is done by our neurons, this is an absolute scientific fact. the physical activity done to develop a physical skills main point is to develop neuropathways between the brain and the muscle fibers. once those pathways are created they are perminent after you do an acitivity to a specific level you can always get back to that point, lets say you develop yourself to the level of a champion power lifter and get sick and go six months without training.

you can always pick up some weights and than train easier to get back to that level.

lets say you start power lifting training today and 2 years from now you now you have developed your strength to a level of XX, than you get sick and go six months without lifting. than you are healthy. it won't take you another 2 years to get back up to XX. it would take you a few months at most depending on how hard you train again. someone doing moderate training could get back up to the level they had previously developed themselves in 4 or 5 months

lets use judo as a more in depth example. studies have concluded that it takes around 1100-1500 repetitions to build an efficient ability to do a take down in any grappling art, be it judo, jiu jitsu etc etc. a good chunk of those repititions are spent on the creation of neuropathways. once those neuropathways are created the very little reps left over are meant mainly for the quick acclimation of the muscles to build stamina.

so if you had a system like in the matrix or a way to instantly develop the neuropathways like the ackerman clan it wouldn't take you 1100 to 1500 reps to learn grappling, because the neurons are what allow you to recall the technique the training you do would only be to acclimate the muscles so instead of 1100 to 1500 reps you would only require a maybe 300 or 400 reps to learn said take down

so for Mikasa when she awakened she gained the experience's of all past awakened ackermans but she also didn't spend years training. so she was a beast and largely capable of taking on any non ackermans.

but once she went into the military and started training she wouldn't have needed years to gain skill. she would have only required months of training to truly become a skilled ackerman

the Karate champion Joe Lewis attained his black belt in only 7 months of training and became full contact world champion with only 22 months of training he won the grand championship of his very first tournement he faught in. in books he attributed to his speed in attaining the skills he had to his instructors who ensured that had the proper and efficient striking before ever having him drill those strikes. so he didn't need to do thousands of drills to learn a martial arts technique

but if you could instantly create all the neuropathways you would start your training already knowing the correct form to do the physical activity so every time you practice you would be practicing correctly so you wouldn't need years upon years to develop olympic levels of skill in say TKD or Judo etc

thats all i am saying. Mikasa instantly had the skills downloaded into her brain and would have required a small amount of physical training to physically realize it It is possible that they don't get the experience of 'fighting in real combat', but instead merely the experience 'being in a combat situation'. Basically, that they don't get the experience of previous Ackermans fighting and applying their skills in fights, but just the experience of having consciously witnessed and been in the thick of it; experiencing the stressful, fast-paced conditions of combat, over and over and over again, but not the actual utilisation of combat prowess. In other words, it goes back to Levi's explanation of 'knowing what to do' and the experienced brawler example I mentioned earlier; a honed instinctive ability to quickly appraise a situation and see the best way to end it in your favor, with this enhanced speed of judgment also giving them faster reflexes. With the experience of a fuck-ton of Ackermans, it would make this ability practically superhuman. Because of this, there's less hesitation and wasted movements, and in addition to the enhanced reflexes and great physical strength, it gives Mikasa and Levi a distinct advantage against most others. It's like with combat operatives. Two soldiers or something similar might have an identical level of skill, but the more experienced one will have better reaction time and quicker and more efficient split-second judgment. It might be like this with the Ackermans, but only dialed up to 11 and then some, granting them some additional boosts to their abilities.

Again, it might be we're looking too deep into this, narrative-wise.