Board Thread:Manga/@comment-44086949-20191205133131/@comment-37493549-20200124134821

MilesTheMorales1 wrote:

If it's just a memory, then why doesn't Zeke treat it as such? He does treat it as such. As does Eren. As does Grisha. Here are some more quotes for you to ignore. This is after they've come out of the memory.

Zeke: If what I saw in your memories was true....he knew that he wouldn't be able to use the power of the founder himself, even if he took it.

Eren: Thank you Zeke. The path ahead of me was only made possible by you bringing me into our old man's memories.

The fact that you continue to resist the obvious truth being repeatedly slammed in your face is amazing. The characters are straight up saying exactly what happened in plain language and you're ignoring them. They're not talking in riddles, you're just pretending everything is some convoluted allegory because you don't want to accept the truth. You've invested so much time into your theory that you're too embarrassed to admit that you missed what most people saw straight away during their first read of the chapter.

MilesTheMorales1 wrote: Just look at all of his reactions, from comfort when he's hugged to sheer panic when they come back to the sandy Paths. He's so shocked at the fact that Grisha can even see him, let alone touch and hug him that he makes the reactionary decision to attempt his plan immediately. Zeke reacts this way because he realizes that he's just been played by Eren and doesn't have control of the situation like he thought he did. Grisha has literally just demonstrated that he can accurately see the future because of the Attack Titan. Then Grisha told Zeke that his plan is going to fail and begged him to stop Eren due to something horrific he saw in Eren's future memories. He now knows Eren has that same power and could well have forseen everything he's been doing and planning all along. And has only been co-operating because it was leading to Eren's desired outcome rather than his own. Of course he's panicking.

MilesTheMorales1 wrote: How does Zeke feel the warmth of Grisha when he makes the "genuine attempt" to give him affection? They don't have to physically touch to show affection. You know how when two people put their hands together on opposite sides of a pane of glass? It's like that. Except Zeke might actually be able to feel something, it's unclear. Grisha obviously can't. When I'm talking about warmth I'm talking about emotional warmth not body heat......

You're ignoring that maybe, just maybe it's a figure of speech. It's a non-sequitor to say you can alter history by interacting with the memories convenient to the user, as memories aren't tangible, and Eren and Zeke interacted with the events visited.

I'm not putting the burden of proof on anybody but myself, as I have already listed a multitude of evidence to support my "insane" theory. What you have done is ignored the evidence, and instead proposed your own easily-debunkable theory to counter mine without listing any evidence to support it, which means you're committing the same fallacies you accuse me of, except I don't rely on them to debunk it. It's clearly not a figure of speech. There is no trace of 'maybe' about it. The word 'memory' has never been a metaphor in this series. It's not a code word. It's not a trick. It's just the truth.

Your theory relies on words meaning whatever you want them to mean rather than what they actually mean. Characters giving false accounts of events they experienced together 5 seconds ago to each other for no reason. The Attack Titan having powers of invisibility and space-time doorways that have never been mentioned or even hinted at.

MilesTheMorales1 wrote:

Your argument falls apart just by simply thinking about it. If it's Grisha that can't feel Zeke, why wouldn't Isayama illustrate this, or have him state as such to avoid confusion? Isayama does illustrate this. By. Having. The. Characters. Repeatedly. State. That. It. Is. A. Memory.

It just occurred to me that your confusion might be arising from the fact that it hasn't clicked for you that two versions of this scene happened from two different perspectives. Grisha's POV in the past, and Eren/Zeke's POV in the present. I'll lay it out as detailed as I can, and if you still don't get it I'll give up.

We've got the scene written from the POV of Eren/Zeke in the present. So we have characters walking around in someone else memory unseen by anyone (except Grisha since only he has the power of the Attack Titan to experience what Eren is experiencing), merely observing and never changing (due to it being SOMEONE ELSE'S MEMORY, they were NOT PRESENT during the events in the memory). The things they do interact with, portals from one memory to the next in the form of doorways, are clearly constructs of the memory world that exist only in the present (much like Zeke and Eren). The portals did not exist in the past for obvious reasons. Yes the DOORS existed in the past but they were not portals between memories due to the fact that the past does not consist of memories. That is, the doors are an example of the difference between Grisha's perspective and Eren/Zeke's.

As for Grisha's perspective, he is just living through his life normally. No magic memory doors, just doors. The only difference is sporadic periods where he receives a memory from Eren's future POV viewing the events he is currently living through. It would be a strange kind of double vision, the view and sounds of his own senses and simultaneously the view and sounds experienced by Eren. Most of what Eren is seeing and hearing is identical to what Grisha is seeing, with the following exceptions.

1) The view through Eren's eyes. So Grisha's is experiencing two images from two sets of eyes. Grisha himself is occasionally visible in Eren's POV which would be a creepy sensation for him, leading to him constantly turning around to try to find who's looking at him. Except he can't, because Eren doesn't exist in the past for Grisha to see, and Eren isn't visible to himself in the present for Grisha to see through the future memory.

Again, most of what he's seeing is an overlap of things he can already see himself. With one exception - the memory world construct of Zeke, which only exists in Eren's POV. (He would be able to see the memory portals that only exist in Eren's POV if he received a memory of Eren looking at one but that never happened).

2) The sounds Eren is hearing. Again, mostly an overlap of things he can already hear, with two exceptions - Eren's voice, and Zeke's voice. Which only exist in Eren's POV.

3) The things Eren is touching in the memory world construct. Eren never touches anything notable, he just has his feet on the ground and occasionally leans on scenery. So this doesn't really matter. Eren never touches the memory world construct of Zeke, so Grisha cannot experience that touch either.

MilesTheMorales1 wrote:

If it's Zeke that can't feel anything, what reason would he have to believe Eren can do anything more than simply view memories? Grisha: The Attack Titan is capable of seeing into the memories of its future inheritors.

Zeke then witnesses Grisha being influenced into killing the Reiss family in the past by words Eren is saying in the present.

See, it's pretty easy to follow when you don't make the assumption that every word every character says that doesn't fit your agenda is a lie.

MilesTheMorales1 wrote: You already believe Zeke is intangible to Grisha, but you somehow take the extra leap in logic to say it's because they're not actually there. They are also quite literally invisible to the Reiss family, but feel free to argue that they ignored/pretended not to see Eren behind Grisha. Zeke isn't intangible to Grisha. Zeke is NOT THERE. Grisha is in the past, Zeke is in the future. Zeke is exploring Grisha's memory that Eren has inherited. Through the Attack Titan, Grisha can see Zeke through Eren's memory of Eren watching Zeke. THEY'RE NOT IN THE SAME PLACE.

The same about being invisible to the Reiss family. They're not invisible, they're simply NOT THERE. The Reiss family are in the past, Eren/Zeke are in the future. Eren/Zeke can see the Reiss family because they're exploring Grisha's memory of being with the Reiss family. Through the Attack Titan, the Reiss family can see.....jack shit because none of them possess the Attack Titan. They can only see the things that exist in their own time, which do not include Eren/Zeke.

I'll continue deconstructing the rest of your post later.