Talk:Hange Zoë

Gender
The infamous "skirt" illustration can be found (in low resolution) at http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/mstkkt-shingeki/imgs/4/b/4b07005f.jpg (there's also a close-up at http://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/k/kajika_eps/20130504/20130504234013.gif) and is part of a joke preview for Volume 6 of the manga, depicting how Hanji views her/his relationship with the Titans. It does not take place in-world (as the presence of the truck attests) and part of the joke is the ambiguity surrounding Hanji's gender (it's a typically Japanese gender-confusion joke suggesting that Hanji the Man becomes Hanji the Damsel in Distress when Titansd are involved). There is no in-world illustration of Hanji in civvies, and clearly this is not intended as backtracking: Word of God says Hanji's sex is ambiguous, and thus Hanji's sex is ambiguous, regardless of what we'd all (or at least I'd...) like it to be.

Mind you, I'm not averse to maintaining the third person feminine pronouns in the article, especially since it looks like the anime staff will be making Hanji a woman in their adaptation. But we really ought to acknowledge somewhere that in the original manga the topic is very much open for debate.

220.157.194.219 14:04, May 16, 2013 (UTC)Enamelthyst

The trivia makes no sense either, give me a trustworhty link with the interview and we'll decide after that. For now I'm removing all these ambiguous things >_>

Actually, the way we have it now ("Female (Anime)") is probably OK: not confusing, but not misleadingly authoritative-sounding. The "interview" isn't really: it all stems from a Q&A session with fans, which can be found archived at http://blog.livedoor.jp/isayamahazime/archives/4388712.html. (the question in, er, question is down towards the end), but it's grown into quite the legend online: if you check http://shingeki-kyojin.com/archives/25745454.html you will see "性別：??" ("Gender: ??") and a bit of Japanese knowledge (or Google Translate) will reveal that the latter portion of the article basically says that most people think Hanji's a woman, but it's not entirely clear. It's also referenced in the Wikipedia article at http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/進撃の巨人 (under "ハンジ・ゾエ"). Now you can find a rather defensive rebuttal of the whole controversy (in English!) at http://papermoon2.tumblr.com/post/49396124889/wow-okay-then-people-are-really-taking-that-out, but I'm disinclined to fully agree with this person based on the fact that "Isayama draws Hanji in her civilian clothes" isn't actually what Isayama did: he was drawing "her" in a fictional reality existing only as a joke. So his original answer might be a troll, or the gag next volume preview might be a troll, or (which is most likely) they are both trolls, and only Isayama knows what Hanji's "true" gender is meant to be. Thus, as far as I'm concerned, the question is still open, and until Isayama makes himself clear (or Hanji changes outfits in the manga) it is premature to commit to a gender for the manga version of the character.

220.157.194.219 16:56, May 16, 2013 (UTC)Enamelthyst

Thanks a lot for all those references! After reading all of this I'd say it's to early to indeed confirm her as female or male in the manga. Though I would refrain to use the word ambiguous since it can also mean both female and male rather than "unknown"..

So, what do the admins think about this?

Thinking back into the past, this all started when someone said Hanji's gender was ambiguous, which I do not believe without evidence. No proof, other than what eyes can see and I think Hanji's a girl. Besides, if Isayama really did pull these "ambiguous" stunts like with Rico and Ymir, I have a lower opinion of him. If not, then all is well I suppose.

Jo4n (talk) 01:16, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, after doing some perverted reason, I can confirm Hanji Zoe is a girl, meaning my fanboism can continue *O*

If Hanji's article gets corrected to a gender-neutral state again, please consider using singular gender-neutral pronouns such as xe or ze; using "they" as a singular pronoun is leading contributors to write things like "they are" instead of "they is", and unless the new speculation about Hanji is that Hanji is a collective of many different discrete identities and should be addressed in the plural, it would be better practice, and more easily kept consistent to address Hanji in the singular.

If Hanji is to be labeled gender-neutral, I suggest we declare all other characters gender-neutral until otherwise specified (if Hanji's manner of speaking and appearance isn't enough to infer her as female, it's hardly fair to allow those things to allow us to infer genders for the other characters). I understand the point of view of the person who made the social-awareness note on the article page that I removed (please feel free to add it to the talk page!) and I am not trying to be hurtful or to erase anyone's identity; I just don't see the point in promoting an internet joke (which Hanji's gender has arguably become; the shingeki-kyojin site linked earlier is a fansite enjoying the richness of Shingeki's online culture) as fact on Hanji's article page.

I am open to hearing more from Isayama-sensei on the subject; however, in reading the manga (in Japanese, of course; as much as I appreciate the hard work and love scanlators put in to creating something that can be shared with a wider community, scanlations should not be treated as a primary source) I thought it was manifestly obvious from the way Hanji speaks that she is female, and I was surprised to discover it was in question at all.

Best regards!

-- very (talk) 23:52, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

"I suggest we declare all other characters gender-neutral until otherwise specified (if Hanji's manner of speaking and appearance isn't enough to infer her as female, it's hardly fair to allow those things to allow us to infer genders for the other characters)."

I mostly just want to address the "internet joke" and the fact that the author has never given Hanji gendered pronouns to begin with. When a character is specified gender-neutral by the author (or the gender is intentionally left ambiguous by the author) that it's important to respect that and not assign them a gender. It's not about not inferring things, it's about respecting the author's decisions about the character and also respecting marginalized trans* people who have so few characters to relate to. When you erase a character's gender-identity or lack thereof, you're harming real people who can relate to that character. Being trans* / non-binary is not just a Western culture thing, but has been present in many cultures around the world. Saying that it's an "internet creation" is false and hurtful.

On the subject of singular they pronouns,  "they are" is a proper and grammatically correct usage. It's a little unusual when a person is not used to it being used consistently for one person (in reality we use it all the time; "that driver was terrible! what were they thinking?), but the more we are exposed to something, the more familiar it becomes. "Hir" is a pronoun that assigns a person an identity, whereas "they" leaves the identity ambiguous. Since we haven't been given an actual identity, only "they are not x," hir pronouns are not technically correct.

24.17.188.66 01:04, June 12, 2013 (UTC) Eli

Gender identity itself is not a joke. When I say "internet joke", I am specifically referring to the fandom's treatment of Hanji's gender in general as "ohoho it's funny not to say, amirite?" I absolutely recognise and welcome a spectrum of identities. However, the part I am not sold on is that Hanji hirself is such a character. Hanji's treatment in canon is not unique to Hanji; there is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about it (Japanese doesn't use terms like "him" and "her" the same way English does when speaking about others, and one's own use of language and manner of speaking can and often is extremely gendered; a reader could read a page of dialogue without identified speakers and be able to get an idea of what gender, age, and "general personality" can be ascribed to each speaker just from the way they talk). I am not being hyperbolic or trying to make a point by saying we should rescind references to gender on other characters if we do so to Hanji. What I am saying is that there is nothing in the text that sets Hanji hirself apart, and that by doing so we're creating artificial divisions in the way we treat Hanji compared to the way we treat other characters, which is the part I personally find offensive.

The alteration to "it" a few days ago absolutely shocked and horrified me; that's appalling treatment for a sentient being. "They" is perfectly fine in theory, but has been accompanied by plural treatment (and often encourages plural use by people who are not familiar with "they" as a singular pronoun), which is why I feel something more obviously singular (and less confusing!) like "xe" or "ze" would serve the same purpose much more adroitly.

"Xe", "ze" and the like do not necessarily ascribe an identity; many people who do not describe themselves as male or female choose to use them instead, of course, but it certainly can be used to refer to people of unknown gender, or to speak about a person when the speaker doesn't want to ascribe a gender to that person.

(The page was edited while I was writing this out; sorry if my responses are a little repetitive and disjointed.)

Your example I suspect is a regional thing (it would never occur to say they in that situation, since only one person would have been driving the car), but if it's clear to the majority of users then that is the best solution. I often use "xie" myself (though I used "ze" here because it's more commonly used) because of the greater clarity of using a specifically singular pronoun; using "they" to refer to a single person (especially when paired with constructions like "they are" instead of "they is") can be confusing and cause ambiguity, especially when discussing events involving multiple people. This comes down to a style issue, however, and should probably be decided wiki-wide (along with things like American or British English, Oxford comma or no Oxford comma, etc etc), along with the dread decision of which sets of name translations to use (all of the official ones have their issues, imho, but I'll leave that discussion to others since I have no dog in that race :))

As a personal aside, I would be very happy and grateful to Isayama-sensei if Hanji is someone who does not ascribe hirself to the usual gender binary; as you have said, more representation, especially in popular media, is desperately needed and wanted!

Thank you so much for bringing the dialogue here to the talk page; I feel like we can have a productive discussion here instead of letting it spill into the article page, and I'm very pleased to have had the opportunity to talk with you.

Best regards!

-- very (talk) 01:27, June 12, 2013 (UTC)