Board Thread:Manga/@comment-31940900-20160810084407/@comment-5774380-20160811201235

Sundurslis wrote: OMG! Manuel de la Fuente You took your time to write their whole conversation for our discussion? :) thank you!

Sorry, but I still will not agree with you about "genocide" term, because I don't think this word is appropriate for current events. These are only our assumptions based on what Berthold said. I'll agree when we get more evidence to think so. I put that conversation entirely to provide the context and avoid confusions, and also to show that it was not just Bertolt's words and that neither him nor Reiner were lying (Reiner assured Ymir that he was being honest and Ymir believed him, and Bertolt simply had no reason to lie to Armin). Reiner makes very clear what's going to happen: "think about your plans. Surely you can consider coming over to our side", "Your tiny little life, or Krista's future".

The plan is evident: "Come to our side or you're doomed. Actually, you're doomed either way, but at least we can spare Krista". Ymir knows what's going on and wouldn't go as far as to give herself up if she didn't think that Reiner was right. Then in chapter 77 Reiner says again "I made a promise to Ymir. We're going to save her [Krista], no matter what." How could they "save" her if the world is doomed? Because not all the world is doomed, only the Walls are doomed, and Krista only can be saved by being taken over to the Hometown. Then Bertolt directly confirms that they want to wipe out all of humanity. That's the definition of genocide, so people should stop getting so uneasy with that word and trying to avoid using it. I'm not discussing the motives or events that led to that, but the thing is that they plan to do it.

And anyway, a genocide does not only apply to the total extermination of a human group, but also to a large part of it, so what they did during the fall of Wall Maria is already a genocide or at the very least an enormous mass murder (yes, they did it on purpose, or didn't they know what were the Titans going to do after they let them in?). It's cold and simple semantics.

Sundurslis wrote: This Isayama's part of interview is brilliant, thank you for sharing it here. I think we must keep in mind one of his inspirations: it's believed that humanity would unite against it's ultimate enemy. However on the contrary they continue fighting each other. This all makes sense if we consider Homelanders as part of humanity. they faced a common enemy but continue fighting over that coordinate. It's certain that we are just seeing one part of the picture, but I don't think there is a "common enemy", and neither the people of the Walls nor the Hometown are the "real enemy" either. It's just that such a black and white concept doesn't exist.

So far we have 4 conflicting groups: the people of the Walls; the Hometown; the Reiss family (who think the people of the Walls are sinners and refuse to free them, but don't want to kill them either and at least in Uri's case wanted to build a paradise for them, and on top of that don't give the Coordinate to the Hometown either); and Ymir's people, who seem to be enemies of the Hometown since Ymir stole something from them, and are transformed into Titans, with Ymir herself wandering in a mindless state for 60 years.

Judging from Isayama's words it's evident his intention to tell us that the mere concept of a "real enemy" is ambiguous, and that they all have part of the fault. He says that the enemies are "those like Annie" (meaning the Hometowners), but that Eren himself is his own enemy, which likely relates to the secrets hidden in the basement and what will happen when Eren uncovers the atrocities commited by his heritage.

So there is no true enemy, because all of them are both victims and enemies, and all of them have both commited and suffered atrocities. They are just trapped "in a cruel world".

The typical argument we have known all this time, actually; we just have to see if Isayama can come up with the expectations once the truth is revealed. Surely the discovery of the basement will trigger a whole discussion about ethics and morality, who has the fault in X situation and what people should have done in Y situation. It would be very funny if Isayama is unable to expose it convincingly and we find a plot hole that destroys the intended dilemma, turning the whole events of the series meaningless, LOL.