Forum:Proposal to Remove NeoSuperior

Hello,

It appears that several of the opinions voiced in this thread have come from the same person under various accounts, which means there is no clear consensus for any action. Wikia staff will not be intervening in this matter further, but this consensus thread should be set aside and any further, similar actions will be scrutinized very closely. --semanticdrifter (help forum | blog) 20:53, March 8, 2015 (UTC)

Important Notice: '''The resolution of this community discussion is postponed. The reason for that is a yet to be processed report to the wikia staff, which has direct influence on the legitimacy and outcome of this discussion. Therefore this discussion in now temporarily closed, until the report has been completely processed. For further questions contact me on my talk page. I also ask wikia staff members to either e-mail me or leaving a message on my talk page, if it is necessary or if there is a need for clarification.'''

---NeoSuperior (talk) 17:14, March 8, 2015 (UTC)

Fellow Shingeki no Kyojin Wikia users, I am back. To jump right out of the gate I am calling for this community to remove NeoSuperior for the following abuses. This will follow the exact same rules as the vote regarding hfc2x found here. By that same token, if the community decides to demote NeoSuperior from his illegally obtained position, a second poll will go up asking the community how long he should be blocked for, if at all.

1. He was incorrectly promoted during an incredibly turbulent time under sketchy concerns - Last Friday (20th), Hfc2x promoted NeoSuperior to bureaucrat. At the time, Neo did not qualify for the position as per our bureaucrat nomination guidelines By those same binding rules, the process for promoting a bureaucrat was completely and totally ignored. This is a total fault on hfc2x, but it also falls on NeoSuperior. I asked him, repeatedly, to step down from his position and he refused. By these actions I contend that NeoSuperior is an illegal bureaucrat and needs to immediately revert to his rightfully gained position of admin. At the same time, he should promote me back to my admin position that he took away from me wrongly.

2. He took power away from this community - The discussion regarding hfc2x was started Thursday at 5:00 AST, and would expire exactly one week from that time. Before the time expired, NeoSuperior took the power away from the community, declared the vote illegal, and closed it. He completely ignored the votes already counted even though Wikia Staff told me to run things that way. There was also to be a second poll asking the community, the ones who are really in charge, how long hfc2x should be blocked for. That discussion was completely stamped out and never even allowed to happen. In fact, hfc2x was simply allowed to resign from his position in what NeoSuperior admitted was a deal worked out behind the scenes. Clearly, NeoSuperior has no regard for this community since he has actively taken power away from them and used it to his own benefit.

3. He demoted and blocked me for incredibly poor reasons - I never did anything to warrant what happened to me, NeoSuperior demoted and blocked me just before issuing his closing statement on the proposal to remove hfc2x. I was, and still am, among the most capable contributors to this wiki and have been doing a lot of the work on this wiki for a long time. I was stripped of my fairly obtained rank of admin and blocked, for 3 months. Neo claimed this was because I posted screenshots from private conversations, showing that he has no idea why Gourgiest was blocked. He was blocked for forging screenshots, none of mine were forged. Further, I made it very clear that I didn't want to post them and only did when my character was attacked by Gourgiest. By blocking me, Neo insured that no one was left on the wiki who could oppose what he was doing. This was an unfair block, issues for the wrong reasons, and done by an illegal bureaucrat.

If NeoSuperior chooses to step down and promote me back to my old rank of admin, then the second poll asking how long he should be blocked for will go up immediately. I had my issues with hfc2x and brought them to the people of this wiki and was blocked for it. Discussion was completely removed. In my own opinion, NeoSuperior has committed far worse acts than hfc2x and I would ask that the community remove him, and after that, block him.

If you feel cheated out of a chance to block hfc2x in line with what was originally in the proposal, then you can do so here. This is where the discussion about blocking him was originally going to go before it was completely and illegally shut down by NeoSuperior.

Vote Counter
This is where I will keep track of the votes, please only 'vote' in a reply in the discussion section. After that I will add your vote to this counter.

Should NeoSuperior be removed from their position?


 * Yes, they should be removed.
 * 1) --PrelateZeratul (talk) 21:32, March 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 2) --Do1ball (talk) 00:40, March 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 3) --User:JinxTheFunhouse (User talk:JinxTheFunhouse 02:34, March 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * No, they should not be removed.
 * 1) --EternalLocket (talk) 23:43, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
I have been a casual contributor to this wiki for only a short time, and I'm not consistent yet in what I wish to do with some pages, but with that being said, I voted on the last discussion to remove hfc2x and did not deter my vote, even after the evidence posted by PrelateZeratul was posted. Although I am a casual, I still personally feel that the rules of this wiki should be followed. Although NeoSuperior has yet to respond to these new allegations, for the time being I will side with PrelateZeratul given his commitment and the information he has posted regarding this and the previous discussions topic. The last topic in particular was wrongfully shut down I feel. Do1ball (talk) 00:39, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

I will list these facts in my defense:

1. I got my bureaucrat rights out of an emergency. It's obvious that you were "involved" in this dispute, but were not self-critical, did not provide the context or the reasons why you think Hfc2x suppoedly treated you and Gourgeist as you claim he did, neither did you describe your own involvment unbiased. All these aspects indicate that you were not in the position to host a discussion about the accused party to be demoted. You also indicated from the beginning that you would "post the conversations, if someone does not believe the accusations", which indicated that you "maintain privacy" out of superficial "goodwill" instead of actually respecting the privacy. You either respect privacy or not. Breaking the privacy of an involved party just to rise your own credibility toward an uninvolved party, while talking about "maintaining privacy" is a very shallow cover for the fact that you did not mind publicizing conversations with Hfc2x, Gourgeist and possibly completely unrelated parties, without their explicit consent in the first place. There is also the fact that you did not even consider trying to reconcile within the confines of the wiki itself. Instead the first thing you explicitly did in the confines of the wiki was proposing the removal of Hfc2x, while as I explained, only having a shallow excuse of maintaining privacy, while manipulating the community to blindly believe you, because you were the one to "talk first". If you really had the community in mind with this, you would first try to actually involve the community in the matters you want to improve (as I explained in the other discussion about the Manual of Style), but you did no such attempts at all. If anyone thinks my reasoning is flawed, then I'd gladly listen. I am open for constructive critisicsm.

2. Since Hfc2x retired from his position, the other thread had fulfilled its purpose (demoting Hfc2x or not) and had no reason for being open anymore. I didn't even actually have the obligation to mention the reason for your block at all there, as that is not done in other cases of blocks either and there is no reason for PrelateZeratul to gain special treatment in that regard, but since I thought it is directly related to it, I mentioned it to avoid unnecessary confusion about it.

3. I don't know any cases of blocks being decided by vote, neither do I belive that you have been told to organize something like that by the wikia staff. You either block someone for a misconduct, or not. It's the same as law enforcement. I don't know about other people, but as for me, I never witnessed the verdict of criminals being given by a majority vote of the state's public.

4. After the last discussion no one objected to my decision to block you, neither did anyone object the fact that I became a bureaucrat. The only thing that happened was someone vandalizing my User page, with the comment "Justice. Ban me if you want, good bye." I think it was done by someone using a sockpuppet account and I think it was one out of two people who I suspect, but since that is unrelated, I keep further speculation regarding that matter to myself.

I also want to mention that I remove the "poll" part out of this, since it was explicitly asked not to make a poll. I will only add it in, if a wikia staff member explicitly asks me to. Your argument to make one out of convienience makes the whole point of banning it moot.

Last but not least I want to mention something here that I thought should be obvious, but it seems it's not. Not realizing it is my mistake and I apologize for it, so here it is:

I banned PrelateZeratul for breaking the Terms of Use. I am mainly refering to following lines:

User Conduct

''You agree that you will not use the Service in any manner that is contrary to the Wikia Community Guidelines, which may be updated from time to time. Without limiting the foregoing, you also agree not to use the Service to:''

[...]


 * Post or transmit any content that is obscene, pornographic, abusive, offensive, profane, or otherwise violates any law or right of any third party, or content that contains homophobia, ethnic slurs, religious intolerance, or encourages criminal conduct;

[...]


 * Post any illegal or unauthorized content or use for any illegal or unauthorized purposes;

[...]

You further agree:

[...]


 * Not to upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights of any party;

[...]


 * Not to access, collect or store personal data about other users in connection with the prohibited conduct and activities described in this “User Conduct” section.

Should anyone consider anything in my reasoning to be incorrect, feel free to correct me.

--- NeoSuperior (talk) 00:42, March 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * Alright Neo, I'm glad you responded to my comment and are taking this seriously. However, do not remove the vote counter. You were already warned on your talk page to not interfere with community votes. The poll does nothing but make it easier to find where people stand, no one is allowed to vote without posting a discussion post first, which is exactly what wikia staff told me to do. I have re-added it, and if you take it down again then I will message wikia staff and get them to weigh in.


 * 1. There is no provision for an emergency proposal in our nomination of bureaucrat page. You have absolutely no right to go around those protocols, none at all. Further, the 'emergency' you describe is incredibly subjective. Hfc2x was not going to be removed for another 6 days, he could have easily maintained his position. Or, as I made clear to you, he could have stepped down and left us with basically no bureaucrat for 1 week, after which we could have the community decide the new bureaucrat, which is how it should be. It is not my job to speculate on why hfc2x acted the way he did. I do not and will not speculaate, all I provided was facts and allowed people to draw their own conclusions. Further, your opinion on if I am in the right position to host a discussion is, completely irrelevant. Any user can make a community vote in this manner, these wikias are run by their communities, a fact you all too often ignore. In regards to me and my privacy intentions, you are doing nothing but speculating. I really had no desire to post private conversations, and made it clear several times that I didn't want to. I urged hfc2x several times to accept the truth of what we both knew, not force me to do it. Even then, I still considered not posting them but I was left with no other choice when Gourgiest posted a false screenshot which, if left unproven, would have made me out to be a liar. I am not one and make every effort to speak the truth, something that Gourgiest attempted to conceal. Also as already addressed I do mind posting private screenshots, since I made every conceivable effort to not. I never manipulated the community to blindly believe me, I challenge you to show me one example where I lied or manipulated anyone. Anything I have posted is the truth. As I keep saying, this discussion is run the way wikia staff told me to run it, that fact that you don't like the format is completely irrelevant. Lastly, blocking me and refusing all contact is not being open to discussion and constructive criticism. Further, protecting the hfc2x proposal is not being open either.


 * 2. If you check what was in the proposal before you took it down prematurely, you will see that it included a clause in case hgc2x resigned. It stated that the first discussion would end and the second would go up asking people if he should be blocked, and for how long. In addition to ending the first one (who knows who wanted to vote in that last stretch) you did not put up the second one. No, you had no obligation to mention why you blocked me. That is irrelevant to this discussion, so I have no clue why you posted it, but I'm not going to speculate on your motives.


 * 3. Here is yet another case of you deciding something on your own and ignoring the community. Again, it is irrelevant what you think about blocking someone with a vote. I consider it far more fair for a high-profile user like a bureaucrat, then just leaving it up to one user which you did. It gives them a chance to defend themselves and appeal for lenience in their block. Or, to convince people that they don't deserve to be blocked at all. You let the people decide, not one user. As hfc2x tried to explain, bureaucrats are not bosses of the wiki, they are users trusted to have a few extra buttons. Stop acting like you are in charge of this wiki or the boss, you're not. Also, if you want an example of a vote being taken to block, here's one


 * 4. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. You blocked a user who tried to open discussion and out the problems of our wiki while closing down the forum where you announced my ban. It makes perfect sense to me that no one would publicly oppose what you did. As for the user who violated your user page, I have no idea who that was but I was following the wiki at the time. I wanted to revert it but obviously couldn't due to my ban. That user was not me or anyone I know, they are completely unknown to me.


 * I contend that I violated no terms of use, and am welcome to have that conversation with you, since I don't stamp out community discussion. And if I did, which I'm not conceding that I did in any way, shape or form, I think a warning would have been more appropriate. Also, the block you did was illegal, you are not a legal bureaucrat on this wiki.


 * If you are so innocent and have done nothing wrong Neo, then I challenge you to step down from bureaucrat and promote me back to admin. At that point, both of us will apply for bureaucrat and allow the community, the ones with real power, to decide. Not a back room deal with a bureaucrat who was in the middle of a vote to remove him. Speaking of which, you came out against behind the scenes administering but the 'deal' you worked out with hfc2x was done behind the scenes, which you admitted to in the final post of the hfx2c proposal.--PrelateZeratul (talk) 01:43, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I wasn't aware I needed to manually place my vote in for the last removal thread..... That being said, I don't think NeoSuperior should be removed. After reading what they wrote, I don't think PrelateZeratul should be blocked. But I agree with them being demoted, as I originally wrote in the first removal thread. I'm also bothered that you are yet again trying to remove yet another member from the wikia. :/ I don't know who vandalized NeoSuperior's page, but I am the user that reverted it. I just keep forgetting to log back in. I am also bothered that only a couple of people even bothered to vote, and based on those few people a decision was about to be made. Something that supposedly affects the entire snk community should not be decided by a few people. EternalLocket (talk) 23:43, March 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well Locket, I do find it very unfortunate that so few of us vote. However, our wiki is not particularly large and such is the reality of our situation. I really dislike having to make these proposals, but there is a need for them. As I have stated from the very beginning, I prefer to solve disputes through open dialogue and discussion. NeoSuperior removed all notion of that when I was blocked from the wiki without any warning or a good reason. My only interest is in seeing the right thing be done, in justice. The indisputable fact is that Neo was made a bureaucrat in complete violation of our policies for choosing bureaucrats. We can't just ignore the rules and have one user selectively follow them, they must be followed. Where the rules are violated, we punish the people who do it; this is the reason vandals are blocked. It is also indisputable that Neo closed a community discussion early and made the decision for the community, in complete violation of what Wikia Staff told me. He also ignored the latter half of the poll that blocks hfc2x, citing the fact that he has 'never heard of things done that way'. Do you really think the wiki can properly function if people are wrongfully put in their position, close down community votes to remove people, and then block the person who did it? These community votes and open discussion forums are the right of all Wikia users, they serve as a check to ensure that bureaucrats are held accountable with their extra functions. If you take them away then there is no way to punish bureaucrats who break the rules. If our nomination for bureaucrat means nothing and can be ignored, you can apply the exact same logic to our rules regarding vandals. And I don't think any of us want to do that. --PrelateZeratul (talk) 00:13, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * While I do believe in justice and doing the right thing. I still feel the original removal thread was unnecessary despite what the wikia staff told you. Because as far as I was concerned all points made, except for maybe one, were all personal matters and had no place in this wikia. But like I said, I don't think you should have been blocked. But I do think you should have been demoted. And if NeoSuperior's promotion was against the rules then they should be demoted to their original position before all this started. And I'm sure we're large enough to carry out a decent vote that's supposed to affect everyone. EternalLocket (talk) 00:48, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * If you check my post that is exactly what I requested NeoSuperior do, demote himself to admin and promote me to admin as I was. At that point, we will let the community pick the new bureaucrat, which is exactly how our rules work. Even though I don't agree, I understand how you viewed the issues with hfc2x as personal matters. However, can you contend that what has happened here is a personal issue? NeoSuperior refused to step down from his position despite me asking him to several times. He refused to have any further discussion. He ended the proposal early and completely ignored the second one. That is in violation of what wikia staff told me, and it goes against the idea of the community having the power. He also blocked me for 3 months and removed me of my fairly obtained rank for posting screenshots. I pleaded with hfc2x to not force me to post them, and I still didn't want to. However, when Gourgiest falsified a screenshot I felt I had no other choice. Are screenshots posted in self defence when the user clearly didn't want to grounds for removal and a 3 month block? In no sense of the word is what's happened here 'personal issues'. --PrelateZeratul (talk) 01:18, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * No, I mean you should keep your demotion. As I feel that's what should have happened during the hfc2x removal thread. But NeoSuperior should also be demoted to their previous rank if their promotion violated any rules. So far I'm not sure how I feel about what's now going on between you and Neo. Just gonna start shortening names when I reply here because they're too long to keep writing over and over. Fell free to do the same to my name, it doesn't bother me. I can't say for sure if the first removal thread was ended early, as I wasn't around to see it end. But I feel the second thread was unnecessary. Blocking someone who resigned because of personal matters between them and another member. None of which seems to have taken place on the wikia seems unnecessary. Neither of you were forced to post anything, since I'm sure no one's in your homes making post things you've prepared, but supposedly didn't want to post. That being said, I did ask for evidence instead of just blindly voting like the others. And based on that evidence I felt you both should be demoted until you all worked things out. As for the block, I said I don't agree with it. But if you've been blocked for 3 months how are you here now? Surely 3 months hasn't passed already?! @_@ EternalLocket (talk) 01:57, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting my shorten your name Locket, makes this a lot easier :P Feel free to do the same with mine or just call me Jesse, I'm cool with either. I don't agree with me being demoted for the hfc2x proposal thread. I continue to believe that those were not personal issues. A bureaucrat who refuses to promote people because he doesn't like them is a wikia issue that could impact all of us. I don't want to set up a precedent where people are afraid to make discussion posts and are worried about getting blocked for doing them. Everyone should be free to bring up issues. I realize the enormous problems with behind the scenes administering and am now 100% against it. You can check when I made the hfc2x proposal thread and then check the history for when Neo closed it, it was before the expiry time, a fragrant abuse. Also, I posted the discussion about blocking hfc2x because it was originally called for in the first proposal before Neo destroyed it, and I still believe the actions he did constitute a discussion about blocking him. If the community, the users with true power, decided not to block him then I would be absolutely fine with that. I will not infringe their judgement or take away their rights/power as Neo did. As for my 3 month block issued for poor reason by an illegal bureaucrat, I spoke with the Wikia staff. A user named SemanticDrifter left a messaged on Neo's wall warning him not to interfere with community votes, which he ignored since he removed the vote counter here. They also unblocked me.--PrelateZeratul (talk) 02:07, March 3, 2015 (UTC)

It is shameful to see people with a large number of edits and a history of contribution on the wiki be so abusive of power, both NeoSuperior and hfc2x are clearly demonstrating this. PrelateZeratul is asking the community for an opinion on blocking or removing violators. NeoSuperior and hfc2x have attempted to evade the threat but simply blocking PrelateZeratul and removing any trace of his community discussion. This wiki is open to edits from the community, as it is a community run wiki, there are certain higher ups. Regardless of standing the community still holds a valid opinion in changes regarding the wiki. NeoSuperior's clear abuse of power shows someone unfit to have a high standing position let alone run the wiki. I strongly agree with the notion to demote him for his abuse of power and block him for a period of time due to his wrongful action on the wiki. --JinxTheFunhouse (talk) 02:34, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * Although he did originally say he would not ever promote you. He saw the "error of his ways" so to speak. And according to him, based on your contributions and Gourgeist's talk with him, he changed his mind. Other than that I see nothing that suggests his actions are so terrible that he should be blocked after being demoted. The fact that everyone is making a big deal about these positions is what probably makes it worse for me. We can all pretty much do the exact same things. With higher positions getting slightly better "perks". The whole thing between you and hfc2x was almost completely a personal matter. As almost none of it had anything to do with the wiki. And I feel there was more going on than what was said in the thread. You all don't seem to like each other much, yet yall do all this talking outside of the wiki. Even up to the day I asked for proof two of you were still in contact with each other. :/


 * I see no problem with a discussion about other users that do wrong. But I don't know, it seems like these "discussions" could be done better. These seem more like trials with community input added. :/


 * Jinx you should put "and" instead of "or". As Prelate intends to not only remove said users but block them as well. That being said, hfc2x didn't appear to be evading anything. Prelate made the removal thread, a couple people commented. Then he commented later on. Not liking someone else is never a reason for removal and/or block. And the fact that he listened to reason when another higher ranking member spoke about Prelate shows he is not so set in his ways that he would let the wiki suffer because of his own personal feelings towards someone else.


 * As for Neo, I feel a demotion is necessary. I don't feel they were acting in a malicious way. But more than likely just wanted this to be over. I mean the guy already demoted himself, he was probably going to be less active from now on anyways. The fact that when anyone does something wrong and we go straight to removal and block threads seems very standoffish to me. Why would anyone want to stay here if stating you don't like someone outside of the wiki is likely to get you demoted and blocked. Not to mention some of these edits lately are at the bare minimum of contribution. I mean someone made a Mr. Ackerman and Mrs. Ackerman page with just a small sentence there. I have no problem with those pages being added, but was a little content too much to ask. I'd rather not block all of our active high quality contributors just because they have problems getting along outside of the wiki. EternalLocket (talk) 15:01, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well Locket, thank you once again for participating in community discussion and being so forward with your thoughts :) As for the blocking hfc2x discussion, it is completely a discussion. Everyone is free to contribute and are actually prohibited from voting unless they discuss. I still strongly feel that hfc2x should be blocked for his abuse/harassment off the wiki and the actions he took as a bureaucrat. You can't refuse to promote people because you don't like them, you just can't. I appreciate that the 'saw the error of his ways' but that alone is not sufficient for me to change my opinion of him. Hfc2x has been insulting me as long as I have known him and has never once apologized, that is not consistent with the atmosphere we want to foster here. I'm not sure what you are looking for in regards to proof of us talking? hfc2x and I don't speak to each other anymore and we didn't for nearly a month when I posted my original proposal. We did have a brief conversation with NeoSuperior on Friday but that has been it. If you are looking for proof of what I said they are in screenshots of skype conversations that NeoSuperior removed from the hfc2x proposal thread.


 * I'm not sure trial is the proper word for it, I still prefer discussion. If I felt the abuses I have brought here could be dealt with solely by discussion then I would opt for that approach. However, NeoSuperior is an illegal bureaucrat and abused that power while refusing to step down. I asked him multiple times and he refused every time. He also ended the discussion and would no longer speak with me on Skype. I will repeat however, that I am now completely opposed to behind the scenes adminstering.


 * I agree with your message to Jinx, I have problems with hfx2x but he never attempted to evade the vote or anything like that. Neo is the one who closed the community vote and banned the person responsible for creating it. I do intend to lobby for these users to be blocked because it creates an example that you can't do such abuses and expect no repercussions. However, my opinion is just one and that is why I ask the community for their input.


 * If you feel a demotion of Neo is necessary then I would ask that you switch your vote to being in favour of it. As for the guy who demoted himself, I'm not sure who you are referring to, Neo never did that. As I mentioned before, I don't go straight to removal and block threads, the only person to take extreme action was Neo, by shutting a vote down, stripping me of my rank, and blocking me. I have always wanted to use open dialogue and discussion in order to solve problems, that's why these last a week. hfc2x didn't just state that he didn't like me, he interfered with the function of the wikia, repeatedly abused me, and posted Skype screenshots to his twitter account. If people like that don't feel welcome here, then I chop that up as a win; we don't want those kinds of people here. Further, the fact that they are active or high quality means nothing. A rank, or higher position, is no reason to be excused from justice and accountability. A user with 10 edits should be held to the exact same degree of justice as a user with 10 000 edits. Lastly, my proposal against Neo has nothing to do with not getting along outside the wiki. The abuses he committed were all done on the wiki and are detailed above. In fact, I have only spoken to that user for a very short length of time once outside of the wiki. I would also like to draw attention to this where a wikia staff member tells Neo that posting screenshots from skype is not against the terms of use, making his already illegal and poor block of me, wrong.--PrelateZeratul (talk) 15:34, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * After reading everything new that was posted, my vote will still stay to remove NeoSuperior. The conversation between PrelateZeratul and EternalLocket doesn't deter me from my own view of "justice". Given the actions that NeoSuperior took, I still feel that he should be demoted and removed. I would like to see this issue settled as quickly as possible so there can be no more internal affairs between members and we can all hopefully strive to bringing this wiki up to date. --Do1ball (talk) 19:07, March 3, 2015 (UTC)