Freeman1378 wrote:
Penguinluver1431 wrote:
Just because someone is sympathetic doens't mean they're right. Someone MIGHT sympathize with the Warriors, but they're still the villains of the story, regardless of their motives or circumstance. If Eren isn't including Armin and Mikasa on his plan, it's because the latter two have lost sight on how to best protect Paradis. The pacifist approach that Armin takes is clearly not going to save them, and the fact that Mikasa protected a Marleyan killer shows she has no concern for her own people, regardless of what she told Kiyomi several pages earlier.
Eren is still the main character. He is still the focus of the series. From the beginning, his purpose has been to wipe out his enemies, both Titans and the ones across the sea. Obviously Zeke has an agenda, but if Eren allying with him involves using the rumbling and wiping out the outside world, so be it. It's the only way Paradis can truly be safe, no matter how idealistic the SC has become.
I don't think Eren is sympathetic right now. He's in a position where the other characters are trying to stop him. I think whatever he's doing, he's either going to fail or pay a huge price for it by the end of the story.
So while Armin version has morale standards, but it wouldn't have work within their world. Plus, there is a possible chance that their allies (Marley Volunteers, Kiyomi etc) are planning something sinister as well.
I may not have watched a lot of Games Of Thrones, and learned that Isayama is basing this Arc on it. But what I have gathered so far that the series involves groups of people. They fight each other in order to claim the throne and kingdom.
Perhaps this is what happening in Attack on Titan. Eren is trying to follow on what Eren Kruger had set out from the beginning. He is trying to free Eldians while protecting his friends and Paradise Island.
Zeke Yeager could have his own version on creating Eldia. A twisted version that involves oppression and manipulation. After all, I think that Zeke is somehow got twisted throughout the years. From his Father & Mother grooming him to become the next leader towards Marley propaganda as a boy. I believe that Zekes' mind has become warped through the ages and has conjured up his version of Eldia.
What do you guys think?
This theory is very viable as Zeke appears to be arrogant and over confident to the point that he might want to shape the world according to his own ideology and it would explain the intial demands (if they weren't intended to generate chaos and throw Paradis into disarray) as Zeke would need to ensure that like Karl Fritz people follow his ideology and finally Zeke I think is probably the ringleader of this entire scenario so it makes sense that the final scenario is meant to benefit him on some level. Outside of this possibility I believe at this point that Zeke is either playing the long game and is the useable "Post" mentioned by Magath to Willy 15 chapters ago (less likely than the other two but still possible) or Zeke is on no one's side and wants to break the whole system as he does seem to dislike the whole state of the world (Ex. he gets angry when killing the SC and laments the inability of the people of the walls to change) and he seems to hate the propoganda his Dad/Mom spewed out to him. The second theory is the specific subset I'm buying into right now as I don't think Isayama will let Zeke become a true villain as while I think Zeke works better as a heel than the international man of mystery type, Isayama seems hellbent on replicating Watchmen's style of flawed characters and beyond good and evil type scenarios and thus I believe that Zeke like his brother Eren will drift closer to that stories antagonist as this story reaches it's climax.
- On a side note: Fun fact the chapter is named after a group of people important to the world of Game Of Thrones.
Aside from my anticipation of seeing the look on Rogue's face when he realizes he's f^#%ed, I am legitimately curious about how the spinal fluid works. Does your Titan form become more grotesque depending on the amount or how it's injested? So far, we've seen 'regular' Titans form by injecting people with needles or dispersing the fluid via gas. But we've seen Rod Reiss transform into a rather grotesque one by drinking it. And given how Rogue (and possibly several other MP's) consumed so much wine, I imagine it's possible we could see multiple 'Rod-Riess sized' Titans crawling around soon.
Narratively, if Eren was considered in the right, his friends would be beside him, but they're not, which shows which direction the story is going.
They came and helped him during his unsanctioned attack on Liberio, so if he's refusing to count on them now, what he has planned is likely to be so unpleasant that he's not even bothering to ask them for help.
I think that's the wrong way to look at things. No one is truly being portrayed as a hero in this series. Sure, there are characters with more heroic traits and characters with more villainous ones, but very few, if any, fall into either category. Everybody's pretty much a mixed bag. The Uprising Arc showed an inkling into that setting, and the good vs evil trope has been completely abandoned ever since the Marley Arc.
I don't think that, narratively, anyone is in the right at the moment. I don't even think Isayama is trying to go for that sentiment in the first place. Besides, the simple fact Eren's friends aren't with him would not be indication enough of him being in the wrong.
As for the 'unpleasantness' aspect, let's remember one Erwin Smith. Many fans of the manga consider him a hero, but he's the one that made the decision of having Eren fight Annie in the middle of Stohess, using his 'I believe it's in the benefit for humanity' or 'it was necessary' as excuses. He also used the excuse of not knowing who Annie's associates were to justify not informing higher-ups like Darius or Nile of her identity, despite the fact he knew that they infiltrated the Walls five years earlier, so anyone who was in longer was a safe bet. In other words, it was but an excuse to justify the SC's continued existence and hundreds of civilian men, women, and children paid the price for it, and the operation was for the most part a failure. Now, this isn't a bash on Erwin as a character; he is one of my favorites too, but I've never really considered him a hero. That didn't lessen my liking of him.
In any case, why is Eren's case different? He's going behind his superiors' backs, just like Erwin; his superiors are rather slow and reactionary, just like Erwin's were; he's using the mentality of the ends justify the means, just like Erwin did.
In my opinion, Attack on Titan is an exploration of people, how they're affected and shaped by the world around them, and what methods they're willing to use to meet their ends. It doesn't go out of its way to differentiate right and wrong, so much that it states observations on humanity itself through the characters' words and actions.
Freeman1378 wrote:
Freeman1378 wrote:
Penguinluver1431 wrote:
Just because someone is sympathetic doens't mean they're right. Someone MIGHT sympathize with the Warriors, but they're still the villains of the story, regardless of their motives or circumstance. If Eren isn't including Armin and Mikasa on his plan, it's because the latter two have lost sight on how to best protect Paradis. The pacifist approach that Armin takes is clearly not going to save them, and the fact that Mikasa protected a Marleyan killer shows she has no concern for her own people, regardless of what she told Kiyomi several pages earlier.
Eren is still the main character. He is still the focus of the series. From the beginning, his purpose has been to wipe out his enemies, both Titans and the ones across the sea. Obviously Zeke has an agenda, but if Eren allying with him involves using the rumbling and wiping out the outside world, so be it. It's the only way Paradis can truly be safe, no matter how idealistic the SC has become.
I don't think Eren is sympathetic right now. He's in a position where the other characters are trying to stop him. I think whatever he's doing, he's either going to fail or pay a huge price for it by the end of the story.
So while Armin version has morale standards, but it wouldn't have work within their world. Plus, there is a possible chance that their allies (Marley Volunteers, Kiyomi etc) are planning something sinister as well.
I may not have watched a lot of Games Of Thrones, and learned that Isayama is basing this Arc on it. But what I have gathered so far that the series involves groups of people. They fight each other in order to claim the throne and kingdom.
Perhaps this is what happening in Attack on Titan. Eren is trying to follow on what Eren Kruger had set out from the beginning. He is trying to free Eldians while protecting his friends and Paradise Island.
Zeke Yeager could have his own version on creating Eldia. A twisted version that involves oppression and manipulation. After all, I think that Zeke is somehow got twisted throughout the years. From his Father & Mother grooming him to become the next leader towards Marley propaganda as a boy. I believe that Zekes' mind has become warped through the ages and has conjured up his version of Eldia.
What do you guys think?
This theory is very viable as Zeke appears to be arrogant and over confident to the point that he might want to shape the world according to his own ideology and it would explain the intial demands (if they weren't intended to generate chaos and throw Paradis into disarray) as Zeke would need to ensure that like Karl Fritz people follow his ideology and finally Zeke I think is probably the ringleader of this entire scenario so it makes sense that the final scenario is meant to benefit him on some level. Outside of this possibility I believe at this point that Zeke is either playing the long game and is the useable "Post" mentioned by Magath to Willy 15 chapters ago (less likely than the other two but still possible) or Zeke is on no one's side and wants to break the whole system as he does seem to dislike the whole state of the world (Ex. he gets angry when killing the SC and laments the inability of the people of the walls to change) and he seems to hate the propoganda his Dad/Mom spewed out to him. The second theory is the specific subset I'm buying into right now as I don't think Isayama will let Zeke become a true villain as while I think Zeke works better as a heel than the international man of mystery type, Isayama seems hellbent on replicating Watchmen's style of flawed characters and beyond good and evil type scenarios and thus I believe that Zeke like his brother Eren will drift closer to that stories antagonist as this story reaches it's climax.
- On a side note: Fun fact the chapter is named after a group of people important to the world of Game Of Thrones.
Agree.
Winston4278 wrote: Aside from my anticipation of seeing the look on Rogue's face when he realizes he's f^#%ed, I am legitimately curious about how the spinal fluid works. Does your Titan form become more grotesque depending on the amount or how it's injested? So far, we've seen 'regular' Titans form by injecting people with needles or dispersing the fluid via gas. But we've seen Rod Reiss transform into a rather grotesque one by drinking it. And given how Rogue (and possibly several other MP's) consumed so much wine, I imagine it's possible we could see multiple 'Rod-Riess sized' Titans crawling around soon.
It all depends on the titan serum itself. My theory about the titan serum is that it triggers something within Eldian's blood, turning them into titans. However, my reason for titans' abnormalities such as enlarged heads and limbs is probably due to the serum messing with Eldians blood. We all know that Eldians are the only ones that can turn into titans, and it has something to do with their blood. Perhaps that the reason about titan serum, to me at least.
As about Rod Reiss turning into that gargantuan titan. Well it is matter on how it enters a Eldian body I believe. Needles can be used to control the size of a titan when a Eldian gets turn into one. Gas, I think that it is by the amount Eldian inhales. Rod Reiss simply ingest the serum, causing a uncontrollable transformation in size.
Any response to this theory?
Marco1995mega wrote:
Narratively, if Eren was considered in the right, his friends would be beside him, but they're not, which shows which direction the story is going.
They came and helped him during his unsanctioned attack on Liberio, so if he's refusing to count on them now, what he has planned is likely to be so unpleasant that he's not even bothering to ask them for help.
I think that's the wrong way to look at things. No one is truly being portrayed as a hero in this series. Sure, there are characters with more heroic traits and characters with more villainous ones, but very few, if any, fall into either category. Everybody's pretty much a mixed bag. The Uprising Arc showed an inkling into that setting, and the good vs evil trope has been completely abandoned ever since the Marley Arc.
I don't think that, narratively, anyone is in the right at the moment. I don't even think Isayama is trying to go for that sentiment in the first place. Besides, the simple fact Eren's friends aren't with him would not be indication enough of him being in the wrong.
As for the 'unpleasantness' aspect, let's remember one Erwin Smith. Many fans of the manga consider him a hero, but he's the one that made the decision of having Eren fight Annie in the middle of Stohess, using his 'I believe it's in the benefit for humanity' or 'it was necessary' as excuses. He also used the excuse of not knowing who Annie's associates were to justify not informing higher-ups like Darius or Nile of her identity, despite the fact he knew that they infiltrated the Walls five years earlier, so anyone who was in longer was a safe bet. In other words, it was but an excuse to justify the SC's continued existence and hundreds of civilian men, women, and children paid the price for it, and the operation was for the most part a failure. Now, this isn't a bash on Erwin as a character; he is one of my favorites too, but I've never really considered him a hero. That didn't lessen my liking of him.
In any case, why is Eren's case different? He's going behind his superiors' backs, just like Erwin; his superiors are rather slow and reactionary, just like Erwin's were; he's using the mentality of the ends justify the means, just like Erwin did.
In my opinion, Attack on Titan is an exploration of people, how they're affected and shaped by the world around them, and what methods they're willing to use to meet their ends. It doesn't go out of its way to differentiate right and wrong, so much that it states observations on humanity itself through the characters' words and actions.
It is true that are no good and bad guys because Isayama isn't making a good versus bad type of Manga. It is mostly about belief clashing with other peoples' belief, whether they are true or not. Plus, action and reaction is also a part of it.
Former Commander Erwin Smith believe that in order for humanity to move forward, there will have to be sacrifices. Armin said to Eren 'in order on defeating Annie, one must become a monster', and I thinking that it will be something he'll regret later on saying.
Eren is no doubt using everything he has learn from his friends and former commander to find a solution. That is probably why he's behaving like this. I don't think Eren is a villain, more likely a anti hero. Heroes obey the rules, adding restriction and making hard for them to accomplish something such as protecting friends & kingdom. Anti heroes accomplish everything by bending and breaking a few rules.
Winston4278 wrote: Aside from my anticipation of seeing the look on Rogue's face when he realizes he's f^#%ed, I am legitimately curious about how the spinal fluid works. Does your Titan form become more grotesque depending on the amount or how it's injested? So far, we've seen 'regular' Titans form by injecting people with needles or dispersing the fluid via gas. But we've seen Rod Reiss transform into a rather grotesque one by drinking it. And given how Rogue (and possibly several other MP's) consumed so much wine, I imagine it's possible we could see multiple 'Rod-Riess sized' Titans crawling around soon.
As about Rod Reiss turning into that gargantuan titan. Well it is matter on how it enters a Eldian body I believe. Needles can be used to control the size of a titan when a Eldian gets turn into one. Gas, I think that it is by the amount Eldian inhales. Rod Reiss simply ingest the serum, causing a uncontrollable transformation in size.
Any response to this theory?
Interesting theory; however, I think Isayama mentioned that when Rod injested the serum, it was done improperly and that had a part in how his Titan form turned out. It was in a needle which was then exposed to the open air; I will say it's surprising that it didn't evaporate immediately, since I thought that's what happened when they tried . In Rogue's case, it was consumed in a similar way but it (seemed to be) more evenly dispersed.
I guess we won't know for sure until Zeke decides it's time to have a good scream.
Winston4278 wrote:
Winston4278 wrote: Aside from my anticipation of seeing the look on Rogue's face when he realizes he's f^#%ed, I am legitimately curious about how the spinal fluid works. Does your Titan form become more grotesque depending on the amount or how it's injested? So far, we've seen 'regular' Titans form by injecting people with needles or dispersing the fluid via gas. But we've seen Rod Reiss transform into a rather grotesque one by drinking it. And given how Rogue (and possibly several other MP's) consumed so much wine, I imagine it's possible we could see multiple 'Rod-Riess sized' Titans crawling around soon.
As about Rod Reiss turning into that gargantuan titan. Well it is matter on how it enters a Eldian body I believe. Needles can be used to control the size of a titan when a Eldian gets turn into one. Gas, I think that it is by the amount Eldian inhales. Rod Reiss simply ingest the serum, causing a uncontrollable transformation in size.
Any response to this theory?
Interesting theory; however, I think Isayama mentioned that when Rod injested the serum, it was done improperly and that had a part in how his Titan form turned out. It was in a needle which was then exposed to the open air; I will say it's surprising that it didn't evaporate immediately, since I thought that's what happened when they tried . In Rogue's case, it was consumed in a similar way but it (seemed to be) more evenly dispersed.
I guess we won't know for sure until Zeke decides it's time to have a good scream.
Expect giant Colossal Titans everywhere.
Winston4278 wrote:
Winston4278 wrote: Aside from my anticipation of seeing the look on Rogue's face when he realizes he's f^#%ed, I am legitimately curious about how the spinal fluid works. Does your Titan form become more grotesque depending on the amount or how it's injested? So far, we've seen 'regular' Titans form by injecting people with needles or dispersing the fluid via gas. But we've seen Rod Reiss transform into a rather grotesque one by drinking it. And given how Rogue (and possibly several other MP's) consumed so much wine, I imagine it's possible we could see multiple 'Rod-Riess sized' Titans crawling around soon.
As about Rod Reiss turning into that gargantuan titan. Well it is matter on how it enters a Eldian body I believe. Needles can be used to control the size of a titan when a Eldian gets turn into one. Gas, I think that it is by the amount Eldian inhales. Rod Reiss simply ingest the serum, causing a uncontrollable transformation in size.
Any response to this theory?
Interesting theory; however, I think Isayama mentioned that when Rod injested the serum, it was done improperly and that had a part in how his Titan form turned out. It was in a needle which was then exposed to the open air; I will say it's surprising that it didn't evaporate immediately, since I thought that's what happened when they tried . In Rogue's case, it was consumed in a similar way but it (seemed to be) more evenly dispersed.
I guess we won't know for sure until Zeke decides it's time to have a good scream.
Yes, the serum is still a mystery. So we will just have to wait and see when Zeke uses his lovely singing voice.
Tdfern14 wrote:
Winston4278 wrote:
Winston4278 wrote: Aside from my anticipation of seeing the look on Rogue's face when he realizes he's f^#%ed, I am legitimately curious about how the spinal fluid works. Does your Titan form become more grotesque depending on the amount or how it's injested? So far, we've seen 'regular' Titans form by injecting people with needles or dispersing the fluid via gas. But we've seen Rod Reiss transform into a rather grotesque one by drinking it. And given how Rogue (and possibly several other MP's) consumed so much wine, I imagine it's possible we could see multiple 'Rod-Riess sized' Titans crawling around soon.
As about Rod Reiss turning into that gargantuan titan. Well it is matter on how it enters a Eldian body I believe. Needles can be used to control the size of a titan when a Eldian gets turn into one. Gas, I think that it is by the amount Eldian inhales. Rod Reiss simply ingest the serum, causing a uncontrollable transformation in size.
Any response to this theory?
Interesting theory; however, I think Isayama mentioned that when Rod injested the serum, it was done improperly and that had a part in how his Titan form turned out. It was in a needle which was then exposed to the open air; I will say it's surprising that it didn't evaporate immediately, since I thought that's what happened when they tried . In Rogue's case, it was consumed in a similar way but it (seemed to be) more evenly dispersed.
I guess we won't know for sure until Zeke decides it's time to have a good scream.
Expect giant Colossal Titans everywhere.
Ooh...scary thought.