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    • If the manga is supposed to end soon then why are a lot of these chapters going at a snail pace?  The first 10 pages were unnessesary filler, chapter should've started right as Eren entered the Path world.  None the less, it was an okay chapter.  Eren is probably dead now as Zeke said he activated the coordinate moments before he died (when you're beheaded you apartently have around 7 seconds until the brain stops) so.... Eren is probably dead.  Not that his character will really mean anything after the rumbling though.

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    • I think since there is no time in "The titan realm" Isayama can show us what happened in the titan wars and history in general.

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    • Zeke doesn't know Eren's going to die, he even said he would heal him with the power of the founder. He was just telling Eren that he made contact with his head and that he is still alive rather than being in some afterlife.

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    • I thought this was a really solid transitional chapter from a battle section to a revelatory section. The chapter had a few decent surprises, brisk pacing, and some truly oustanding visuals to make sure that even though this wasn't earth shattering it was still a very enjoyable read.

      Pros:

      - The biggest positive I can think of with this chapter was the artwork as the panels really popped off the page with prominent examples being the crows flying over the walls & Eren standing in front of the paths (neat it really does look like Yggdrasil) as the composition, drawing, and panelling were all truly exceptional throughout these specific panels and the chapter at large. 

      - The next positive thing was getting to understand the nature of Ymir a little bit more seeing that ironically enough for someone who is basically god she is also a slave with little will of her own which opens up a lot of intriguing possibilities for the future of the series (Ex. a new contender for the "you are free" panel?).

      - The last positive thing was that Zeke looks like he is going to receive a healthy dose of development as a result of reveals regarding both Grisha & Eren and why they continued to fight and act the ways that they did. I guess it also leaves Zeke in a intriguing place as like Gabi he will be a barometer for whether people really can change (at least on the micro level) as he'll either learn the value of life through his father & brother's memories or stubbornly stick to his nihilistic outlook.

      Cons:

      - I found this to be just a really good chapter with no big flaws really sticking out to me as I found this to be a clear tablesetting chapter (probably for the next 3 chapters) and it's overall merit will depend on how future chapters build on the material present here. I am overall feeling very optimistic about the future of the series right now and think with time I will see this as a very well done chapter similar to the chapter 96-99 stretch in Marley or in other words set up done right.

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    • Zeke seeing Eren's memories: Surprised Pikachu.

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    • I find this interesting. While this chapter did felt like filler to a degree. However I admit I was taken aback that, while Eren plan was to use and later betray Zeke (I am sure a lot of people will say "CALLED IT"). However it didn't go as plan as it will only work for Zeke as he is of royal blood and the only one born outside of the "King's influence" and the tables turn on Eren who has the Founding Titan. Well played author well played.

      Well Grisha memory lane was kind of tedious as it took 70% of the chapter however, like @Freeman said, it does serve a purpose to give Zeke a new perspective on Eren & Grisha. While Zeke may have a point to sterilize the Eldian race to cease the circle of hatred and violence, I think Eren's plan is to activate the "Rumbling" to send back the Eldians and really the entire world back to Zero, to give everyone a fresh new restart on life to start back where everyone can be equal. Whether Zeke will change his mind well thats still up for debate.

      This chapter was kind of disappointing and myself a little anxious impatiently to next month, however I like this whole Interstellar/Inception or Tree of Life style world and Zeke & Eren own mental gymnastics & battle of ideas & views.

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    • Well, that was a bizarre one. Both of them entering the Paths? Wouldn't have guessed it. Otherwise I wasn't really that impressed. Though I never was really that interested in Grisha's story after the basement reveal. Sounds like another chapter or two will be mostly about memories. I mostly just wanted to see every side react to Eren's head sent rolling, lol.  Actually it was satisfying to see the Titans eat the Marleyans XD 

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    • I honestly don't know what to think with this chapter; sure it gave us some insight on Eren's early life and how Grisha had improved his non-existant parenting skills to actually be a father for Eren, but the momentum and story ground to a screeching halt.

      I understand not all issues can be overflowing with action but to go from an issue containing so much advancement in the story to this one was a bit jarring for me (and I'm sure it was for others). Honestly, this gets a 6.5/7 from me.

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    • Isn't there a plot hole here. The founder ignores Eren because he has no royal blood and thus he's unable to use its power.

      So how did he command the pure titans to kill the smiling titan then?

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    • TKGriffiths wrote:
      Isn't there a plot hole here. The founder ignores Eren because he has no royal blood and thus he's unable to use its power.

      So how did he command the pure titans to kill the smiling titan then?

      Maybe it has something to do with Dina being a mindless titan whereas Zeke is a proper shifter. Just guessing here but maybe shifters have a more intimate connection to Ymir due to the Nine apparently being parts of Ymir's soul whereas mindless titans have no will outside of eat & destroy. So Dina might have provided the means to control the titans but had no input in how they acted because of her will being sealed away whereas Zeke is fully conscious as a shifter and can input his will with Ymir apparently favouring her kin over other shifters in situations like this one. 

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    • From the featured stuff thread:

      Tdfern14 wrote:

      It be interesting to Ymir's past and how she found the "Origin of all Organic Matter" (or whatever its exactly called) and how it relates to all Eldians. She must be like a Moses type figure.

      The "source of all living matter" is most surely the Coordinate itself, as it has been shown that the point where the paths (which are capable of transporting organic material) converge has very literally the shape of a fountain or a tree. That's the source where living matter is created out of soil and sent to the physical world via the paths.

      But this chapter does make me even more curious to see how the hell Ymir happened to find that place, and ended up staying there for an eternity serving as a slave with no free will.

      Maybe this was the contract she made with the Devil of All Earth? What if the Devil was the original inhabitant of that place, and it granted her the ability to use it as she pleased, on the condition that after dying she would stay there taking its place?

      I can't help but notice that she also doesn't look at all like the powerful queen from legend. She dresses humbly and looks like a mere poor servant. This makes me think that the myths about her reign on the world are not even close to reality, and she was a simple girl who found herself in a situation that she couldn't understand and was never under her control, until it ended in disaster and tragedy for her and the world.

      I think it's very possible that we'll see a flashback of her life as Zeke and Eren continue exploring memories in the paths.

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    • Wait, wasn't this chapter named "Instant"? What happened there? Misinformation? 

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    • I'm guessing Isayama was recuperating after the made rush that 119 apparently was, so that's why this is a slow chapter. He never misses a deadline, so this probably to made things easier on himself.

      I did like the memory fragments in the beginning though, especially since I couldn't identify a couple (who's the kid in the fez on page 10?). Seeing that Eren had dropped the baseball Zeke tossed him was a nice touch, and I liked seeing an Eren Kruger POV flashback. I assume everything is just getting turned into one big paths muddle.

      I also like the idea that Ymir was just a girl who stumbled into incredible power, but I don't like the idea that Ymir (or the one in the coordinate) is simply a slave to anyone else with royal blood. It doesn't make sense that she be beholden to her descendants in such a way. (And why does she appear as a young girl rather than the age she was when she died?)

      The traveling through Grisha's memories was unexpected, but I like that he took Kruger's words to heart and truly found love within the Walls. The fact he found the Reiss family's hideout beneath the chapel and didn't act on it for years speaks volumes about how his priorities changed. If the Warriors hadn't attacked that day he might never have taken the Founding Titan. He only went there as a last resort to try and save his family.

      I also enjoyed the basement scene where he has the photo of his first family out and reveals that he's never forgotten Zeke. It's a side of his father that Zeke never got to see, the Grisha who regretted trying to turn his son into a weapon.

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    • Did Gabi shooting off Eren's head really accomplish anything, what would have been different if she never took the shot? If Eren's whole purpose was to reach Zeke to get to the Paths as ended up happening anyway, what's different? I know both are incapacitated but still. Did she really affect anything? What would have been different if they weren't incapacitated? Or if at least one was still mobile? The Paths was the point of them making physical contact, no? To get the Founder? I'm confused. I'm not really a Gabi fan, far from it, actually. But I am curious if this almost-fatal shot really impacted anything. Would these two have entered this other dimension regardless of their physical state in the real world? 

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Would these two have entered this other dimension regardless of their physical state in the real world? 

      Zeke believes that members of the royal family would go to that other dimension (paths, the coordinate, whatever you want to call it) whenever they used the Founding Titan's power. Assuming Zeke's suspicions are true, then the two of them would go there regardless of whether Eren was decapitated as long as they were trying to use the Founding Titan.

      Eren being decapitated might still make a difference when they leave, unless Zeke is capable of fixing him, but as far as going to the other dimension, Gabi's shot didn't change the outcome. They still made contact and Eren wasn't brain dead yet, which was just enough.

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    • I think there is a big Game of Thrones inspiration in this chapter, especially as we know that Isayama likes this show. Zeke and Eren travelling through the memories really felt similar to the greensight in GoT: in both series, they can watch memories from past, present, (future?), because from the perspective of the place they are in (The Path/The weirwoods), time isn't linear. And in both series, they have some astral body that doesn't seem to be affected by their physical state in the real world. Plus, they can have small interactions with the people they see, and the funny thing is that in both cases it's a father that "heard/saw" his son (Zeke/Grisha and Bran/Eddard). I would guess that, just like in GoT, if there is a small interaction between the "watchers" of the memories and the people from the memories, it's not changing something in the timeline, it's just making something that has always happened. Tho, from the perspective of the people from the memories, it's not very important: in GoT, Eddard just heard some weird echo, and Grisha probably thought it was a dream, especially as he was already in a sleepy state.  

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    • RuneLai wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Would these two have entered this other dimension regardless of their physical state in the real world? 

      Zeke believes that members of the royal family would go to that other dimension (paths, the coordinate, whatever you want to call it) whenever they used the Founding Titan's power. Assuming Zeke's suspicions are true, then the two of them would go there regardless of whether Eren was decapitated as long as they were trying to use the Founding Titan.

      Eren being decapitated might still make a difference when they leave, unless Zeke is capable of fixing him, but as far as going to the other dimension, Gabi's shot didn't change the outcome. They still made contact and Eren wasn't brain dead yet, which was just enough.

      I didn't think so. Not from what I gathered from it anyway. 

      Sorry, I never watched Game of Thrones. 

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    • so first thing is first......

      I KNEW IT. I KNEW OUR BOI EREN WASNT FOR ZEKE'S EUTHANASIA PLAN AND WAS GOING TO BETRAY HIM.

      second, girl in the titan realm is Ymir Fritz herself confirmed.

      third, i hope Zeke doesnt really have full control of the founding titan because i dont want the fate of the Eldians to be put in his hands. 

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    • I hope that Zeke seeing that Grisha regretted their shared past isn't gonna lead to some cheap "redemption" that enables Eren to take full control of the founder. Zeke's way beyond that. 

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:
      I hope that Zeke seeing that Grisha regretted their shared past isn't gonna lead to some cheap "redemption" that enables Eren to take full control of the founder. Zeke's way beyond that. 

      I agree; Zeke having a redemption arc would not fit into how his character has been written up to this point and I feel it would ruin him as a character. He is a vengeful man who is past the point of rescue; I see him acknowledging this just like what he did with Colt,  but will still continue on with his plan now that he has control of Ymir.

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    • Well this chapter was different from what I was expecting. I get the feeling Eren will probably gain some control over the Founding Titan just because of how stubborn he is. Well we'll probably have the next few chapters taking place inside the Paths. I'm hoping Eren awakens the Wall Titans at some point in Volume 31 & eventually he comes to realize that he has to stop them with help from his friends. It would be awesome to see Levi killing several Wall Titans even when injured.

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    • Cheng The Nerd wrote:

      second, girl in the titan realm is Ymir Fritz herself confirmed.

      I wouldn't say it's confirmed. It's simply Zeke's conclusion. Eren asks "How do you know" and Zeke's reply is "Who else would be wandering this place but her?"

      Basically, Zeke doesn't have a better answer, but believing she's the person all the Titans came from is the best idea he has.

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    • "Who else would be wandering this place but her?"

      Krista Lenz

      (She's the girl who gave Ymir Fritz the apple)

      (Oh, and Historia's book has 2 women on it, Ymir Fritz on the front/Krista Lenz on the back)

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    • This is my new favorite chapter. The grappling between Zeke and Eren in this one was TOP NOTCH. I was on the edge of my seat for the whole chapter. And Zeke realizing at the end that Grisha still cared about him I think is going to majorly impact him and possibly even win him over to Eren's side.

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    • maybe Eren sent his brain "power" to the rest of his nervous system, just as Reiner did when Levi stabbed his neck during the retake of wall maria arc

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    • Sske11 wrote:
      maybe Eren sent his brain "power" to the rest of his nervous system, just as Reiner did when Levi stabbed his neck during the retake of wall maria arc

      If Eren sent his consciousness to his body, then Zeke touching his head wouldn't have accomplished anything I suppose, as the consciousness wouldn't be in the head.

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    • So-so chapter, not a whole lot going on. But so much for that "Ymir Fritz is the final villain" theory, since she's apparently a slave. Guess a lot of Eren fans will be glad to see Eren never supported the euthanasia plan and was playing Zeke like a...oh wait, that was Zeke, he was playing Eren too.

      Super confused by Grisha seeing Zeke. Was that legit a memory of Grisha seeing Zeke as an older man or just in Zeke's head?

      So while I am SUPER glad Gabi wasn't in this chapter, neither was anyone that wasn't a Yeagerbros or part of the Yeager family. I dunno, I feel like they could have split this entire chapter in two and use the other half of each one for present day (or more specifically non-Paths) events.

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    • I think that the upcoming chapters might deal with the "To You, 2000 years from now", and might also give an explanation about the "long dream" Eren had at the begining.

      Also, I'm wondering if Karl Fritz didn't create the vow in this place. He went there, and asked "Ymir" to create this vow for him, and here we go.

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    • Chapter definitely felt shorter, primarily due to the first like fourth of it being all freeze frames as time went still and like the first third didn't even have any dialogue. But the actually revalations and context we get in this chapter is definitely very interesting food for thought moving forwards and puts down cards for interesting plot threads leading into how things may end.

      Learning that Ymir herself is a slave was something I theorized in the past, though her being one without free will even in her current state is something I did not anticipate. I believed she would've come from a slave upbrining but suspected the freedom theme would be a part of what came to be, but the fact she probably was and still is a slave is very interesting. It really makes me hope that the story will actaully explore what had led her to this current existence, cause there had to be a will or some kind in the past.

      I REALLY do not want Zeke to somehow turn a new leaf. I do love Zeke as a character and to be honestly, out of all the plans on the table, Zeke's is by far the most rational in the long term and it does show he values the greater good for the entire world. Even if he begins to see other things in a better light, such as seeing Eren's drive for freedom being completely of his own, I really do not want this to suddently skew his perception about the greater good for the world. Depending on what Eren's plan actually was, I dearly hope Zeke's stance when it does get revealed still factors in the above.

      I genuinely do not think Eren himself factors at all into the memories being shown, they are Grisha's being called upon by Zeke, Eren is merely there on the ride. Now given it seems some of these memories are very much new to both the brothers. I suspect Eren pull Zeke into the next memory which may either be something new or something like Grisha as the Riess estate, pleading to Freida not out of his nationalist ideology, but for his family.

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    • but what are the odd of Zeke even having a change of heart when he and eren walk though grisha's memories? the way i see it, zeke might see that grisha did learn his lesson and still thought about him and dina as well as regretting using him as a tool for his ideology, i still see him still going ahead with his euthanasia plan. 

      who knows, maybe whatever the yeagerbros will see in the memories will give zeke more reasons and motivation to carry out the euthanasia plan and at this point there wont be anything eren might do to stop him unless he has to resort to killing him.

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Did Gabi shooting off Eren's head really accomplish anything, what would have been different if she never took the shot? If Eren's whole purpose was to reach Zeke to get to the Paths as ended up happening anyway, what's different? I know both are incapacitated but still. Did she really affect anything? What would have been different if they weren't incapacitated? Or if at least one was still mobile? The Paths was the point of them making physical contact, no? To get the Founder? I'm confused. I'm not really a Gabi fan, far from it, actually. But I am curious if this almost-fatal shot really impacted anything. Would these two have entered this other dimension regardless of their physical state in the real world? 

      Other than for shock factor.

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    • Winston4278 wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:
      I hope that Zeke seeing that Grisha regretted their shared past isn't gonna lead to some cheap "redemption" that enables Eren to take full control of the founder. Zeke's way beyond that. 

      I agree; Zeke having a redemption arc would not fit into how his character has been written up to this point and I feel it would ruin him as a character. He is a vengeful man who is past the point of rescue; I see him acknowledging this just like what he did with Colt,  but will still continue on with his plan now that he has control of Ymir.

      I don't know if it is redemption really but more or less change of heart.

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    • RuneLai wrote: I'm guessing Isayama was recuperating after the made rush that 119 apparently was, so that's why this is a slow chapter. He never misses a deadline, so this probably to made things easier on himself.

      I did like the memory fragments in the beginning though, especially since I couldn't identify a couple (who's the kid in the fez on page 10?). Seeing that Eren had dropped the baseball Zeke tossed him was a nice touch, and I liked seeing an Eren Kruger POV flashback. I assume everything is just getting turned into one big paths muddle.

      I also like the idea that Ymir was just a girl who stumbled into incredible power, but I don't like the idea that Ymir (or the one in the coordinate) is simply a slave to anyone else with royal blood. It doesn't make sense that she be beholden to her descendants in such a way. (And why does she appear as a young girl rather than the age she was when she died?)

      The traveling through Grisha's memories was unexpected, but I like that he took Kruger's words to heart and truly found love within the Walls. The fact he found the Reiss family's hideout beneath the chapel and didn't act on it for years speaks volumes about how his priorities changed. If the Warriors hadn't attacked that day he might never have taken the Founding Titan. He only went there as a last resort to try and save his family.

      I also enjoyed the basement scene where he has the photo of his first family out and reveals that he's never forgotten Zeke. It's a side of his father that Zeke never got to see, the Grisha who regretted trying to turn his son into a weapon.

      I also noticed in one of the memory fragments of Eren that there was a image of long haired Historia which was never shown in the manga before. So this may prove the theory that Eren is the father of Historia's child?

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    • Cheng The Nerd wrote:
      but what are the odd of Zeke even having a change of heart when he and eren walk though grisha's memories? the way i see it, zeke might see that grisha did learn his lesson and still thought about him and dina as well as regretting using him as a tool for his ideology, i still see him still going ahead with his euthanasia plan. 

      who knows, maybe whatever the yeagerbros will see in the memories will give zeke more reasons and motivation to carry out the euthanasia plan and at this point there wont be anything eren might do to stop him unless he has to resort to killing him.

      Agreed, redemption arcs are so overdone these days, people forget that it's entirely possible to have complex villains without redeeming them. I agree that Zeke being redeemed would ruin his character.

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    • I'm just wondering when he finally loses his plot armor, lol 

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    • So, basically, it's finally explained how the Paths and the Power of the Titans work, especially the Founding Titan's. Essentially, the wielder of the Founder doesn't truly have the power of Ymir herself; that power is still with Ymir, whose soul has remained inside the Coordinate. However, she is subservient to anyone who possesses royal blood, and they can use her to exercise the power she has in the ways they want. But that is only possible if they reach the Coordinate somehow and command her from there. That's what the Founding Titan is for; a medium that allows a royal to reach that place. If I have to use an analogy, and I apologize if it isn't particularly clear, I'd use the one of the man holding a loaded gun. The holder of the Founder is the man, the Founder is the gun, while Ymir (or more specifically, her powers) is the bullet.

      It also explains how Zeke can use part of the Founding Titan's power; because it isn't REALLY its power. It is just a medium to access the Coordinate, only capable of being activated by a royal. Zeke, by holding the one of the Nine (who happen to hold remnants of Ymir's soul, and therefore can be argued to have a direct connection to her, but not necessarily to the Coordinate, as we saw when she repaired Zeke's body), and then injecting an Edlian with his spinal fluid, can create a direct connection between them and himself. Then, thanks to the Beast Titan he holds, he can (unknowingly to him, at the time) command Ymir to exercise her power through his directions on all the Eldians he has connected himself to.

      Eren was able to use Ymir's powers by coming into contact with Dina, who was a mindless Titan. For him, both the Founder and Dina herself were the medium, but she functioned as a medium in two ways. The first is the direct link to the Coordinate, and the second was in allowing him command of Ymir by essentially fooling her into believing he himself was a royal. Dina was a Pure Titan, while he himself held two of the Nine, who are remnants of her soul, so it's his will in that case that came through, but since he reached the Coordinate, Ymir had believed that he must therefore be a royal.

      Furthermore, it does appear that non-royal holders of the Nine (minus the Founder) can also exercise a comparatively miniscule amount of authority over her. This can be seen in their ability to transform into Titans in the first place when they wish it (plus injuring themselves; that part I don't get), as well as the ability to control their regenerative powers. Basically, when it comes to their own bodies and Titans, Ymir will act on their will, thanks to the connection they have with her.

      In essence, non-royal shifters have power over Ymir, while royals with the Founder have power over both her and her control over the Coordinate that connects all Subjects of Ymir together.

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    • Well that certainly does explain why the spinal fluid works as it does. Hope there's not too many more layers to this otherworldly ability though, it's hard enough to make sense of as is. 

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    • I also have a theory about the Pure Titans, and it all boils down to this:

      Awareness and will matter, on both Ymir's part as well as the Eldians'.

      What I'm trying to say is that Ymir acts based on the will and knowledge of her Subjects. However, when she can't gauge their desires, she acts in a way that seems logical to her. Basically, when she senses that Titan fluid is inside the bodies of human Eldians, when Titan fluid should only be inside the bodies of Titans, she "corrects" the issue by turning them into Titans.

      Shifters are exempt from this because they all hold a part of her soul, and because of that, she can determine their desires and will. It's been implied multiple times. For example, Falco said that a shifter won't heal if they don't have the will to live. In other words, Ymir was able to read Reiner's suicidal thoughts, and therefore didn't heal him.

      Awareness also comes into play. The shifters powers are optimal only if they are aware of their power. For example, Eren never transformed during his training, despite doubtlessly receiving many injuries throughout, and having had concrete goals at least a few of those times... because he didn't know he had that power. He believed himself to be completely human, with regular human abilities, and the fact his wounds never released steam prior to his first transformation was probably a result of this too (the steam coming from his head wound is anime only, I believe). His arm and leg healing after being bitten off at Trost is also a clue. They didn't steam prior to him transforming and losing himself during that time, because he was still fully conscious and still held on to the aforementioned beliefs.

      However, when he transformed the first time (which was probably a result of the fact his life was one the line and his opinion that all his options had been exhausted, but still wanted to kill Titans 'by any means necessary'), that awareness was lost and the only thing going through his mind was the will to live (so he could fulfill his revenge of slaughtering all the Titans). With those beliefs gone temporarily in that state, that roadblock they presented was gone too, and Ymir acted on that will to live by healing his injuries. That awareness was also the reason Eren transformed during the time he spent with the Levi Squad. Like in training, he had an injury, a goal, but unlike before, he knew of his Titan power, but he did NOT know how to activate them. However, Ymir acted on what he DID know and his then desire to transform (even if it was closer to the back of his mind at the moment), and with all the circumstances for the activation met... BOOM! Titan transformation!

      Essentially, Titan powers and bodies are given and controlled by Ymir, who acts on the will and knowledge of her Subjects, but it also depends on her own awareness of her Subjects' will and knowledge.

      That pretty much explains everything.

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    • From the stuff above, it sounds like the control over the almost non-sentient (but mostly certainly sapient) Ymir is a balance of power. Royals can access Ymir, but can't control her. Theoretically, average Subjects can control Ymir, but can't reach her. Eren and Zeke then completely and utterly broke the rules to the Paths, thus being the reason as to why we can't have nice things anymore.

      Or something like that.

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    • Impressive that you made that much sense of out of all that, Marco1995mega. I mean it still needs a lot of boiling down, and frankly I just got into all this for the humans vs. titans deal and all that, but it's so easy to get lost with this whole Ymir thing. I almost understood most of that. 

      Still not sure I get what Ymir's personal stake is in all of this though. I just keep expecting Eren to somehow find a way to overwrite her will in giving a middle finger not just to Zeke's plan but to the Titan curse altogether. 

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    • i also think that this chapter then links with To you 2000 years from now given Zeke and Eren are walking through memories and somehow influencing the timeline in their own way. 

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    • Cheng The Nerd wrote:
      i also think that this chapter then links with To you 2000 years from now given Zeke and Eren are walking through memories and somehow influencing the timeline in their own way. 

      Influencing the timeline? In what context do you mean? 

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    • Cheng The Nerd wrote: i also think that this chapter then links with To you 2000 years from now given Zeke and Eren are walking through memories and somehow influencing the timeline in their own way. 

      They're not influencing the timeline. The very small interactions they made with Grisha are too small to have a real effect. Plus, whatever small interactions they make, that mean this has already happened in their timeline. Even if the term «timeline» isn't relevant as we're not talking about time travel, we're in a GoT-like situation. But usually, to simplify things, we will talk about time travel. Whatever they «did», if it as a very small influence over the events seen in the memories, that mean it has already happened, it's a bit similar to Harry potter 3, and very close to GoT

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    • @Marco1995mega

      Good theories and speculation there. Well done.

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    • Penguinluver1431 wrote:

      Cheng The Nerd wrote:
      but what are the odd of Zeke even having a change of heart when he and eren walk though grisha's memories? the way i see it, zeke might see that grisha did learn his lesson and still thought about him and dina as well as regretting using him as a tool for his ideology, i still see him still going ahead with his euthanasia plan. 

      who knows, maybe whatever the yeagerbros will see in the memories will give zeke more reasons and motivation to carry out the euthanasia plan and at this point there wont be anything eren might do to stop him unless he has to resort to killing him.

      Agreed, redemption arcs are so overdone these days, people forget that it's entirely possible to have complex villains without redeeming them. I agree that Zeke being redeemed would ruin his character.

      Complex villains without redeeming them? Liken what or who for example?

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    • Tdfern14 wrote:

      Penguinluver1431 wrote:

      Cheng The Nerd wrote:
      but what are the odd of Zeke even having a change of heart when he and eren walk though grisha's memories? the way i see it, zeke might see that grisha did learn his lesson and still thought about him and dina as well as regretting using him as a tool for his ideology, i still see him still going ahead with his euthanasia plan. 

      who knows, maybe whatever the yeagerbros will see in the memories will give zeke more reasons and motivation to carry out the euthanasia plan and at this point there wont be anything eren might do to stop him unless he has to resort to killing him.

      Agreed, redemption arcs are so overdone these days, people forget that it's entirely possible to have complex villains without redeeming them. I agree that Zeke being redeemed would ruin his character.
      Complex villains without redeeming them? Liken what or who for example?

      The majority of GoT characters, Azula from Avatar, most of the main villains from Legend of Korra, some villains from One Piece, and Zeke from our very own AoT, provided Isayama doesn't pull a Naruto and give redemption arcs to every villain just because they're "misunderstood"

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    • Penguinluver1431 wrote:
      Tdfern14 wrote:

      Penguinluver1431 wrote:


      Cheng The Nerd wrote:
      but what are the odd of Zeke even having a change of heart when he and eren walk though grisha's memories? the way i see it, zeke might see that grisha did learn his lesson and still thought about him and dina as well as regretting using him as a tool for his ideology, i still see him still going ahead with his euthanasia plan. 

      who knows, maybe whatever the yeagerbros will see in the memories will give zeke more reasons and motivation to carry out the euthanasia plan and at this point there wont be anything eren might do to stop him unless he has to resort to killing him.

      Agreed, redemption arcs are so overdone these days, people forget that it's entirely possible to have complex villains without redeeming them. I agree that Zeke being redeemed would ruin his character.
      Complex villains without redeeming them? Liken what or who for example?
      The majority of GoT characters, Azula from Avatar, most of the main villains from Legend of Korra, some villains from One Piece, and Zeke from our very own AoT, provided Isayama doesn't pull a Naruto and give redemption arcs to every villain just because they're "misunderstood"

      Okay like Amon and Zaheer, and Blackbeard & Akainu, right?

      but while Zeke isn't misunderstood per say but his perception is a bit skewered, he just doesn't see the entire picture from Eren's side of the spectrum. It's good to have both perspectives. 

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    • Tdfern14 wrote:
      Penguinluver1431 wrote:
      Tdfern14 wrote:

      Penguinluver1431 wrote:


      Cheng The Nerd wrote:
      but what are the odd of Zeke even having a change of heart when he and eren walk though grisha's memories? the way i see it, zeke might see that grisha did learn his lesson and still thought about him and dina as well as regretting using him as a tool for his ideology, i still see him still going ahead with his euthanasia plan. 

      who knows, maybe whatever the yeagerbros will see in the memories will give zeke more reasons and motivation to carry out the euthanasia plan and at this point there wont be anything eren might do to stop him unless he has to resort to killing him.

      Agreed, redemption arcs are so overdone these days, people forget that it's entirely possible to have complex villains without redeeming them. I agree that Zeke being redeemed would ruin his character.
      Complex villains without redeeming them? Liken what or who for example?
      The majority of GoT characters, Azula from Avatar, most of the main villains from Legend of Korra, some villains from One Piece, and Zeke from our very own AoT, provided Isayama doesn't pull a Naruto and give redemption arcs to every villain just because they're "misunderstood"
      Okay like Amon and Zaheer, and Blackbeard & Akainu, right?

      but while Zeke isn't misunderstood per say but his perception is a bit skewered, he just doesn't see the entire picture from Eren's side of the spectrum. It's good to have both perspectives. 

      Amon and Zaheer yes, and a little bit of Blackbeard, but as far as the Admirals go I'm thinking Aokiji is more complex than Akainu since the latter is very narrow-minded in his views of absolute justice while Aokiji bounces around based on his circumstances.

      As for Zeke, I'm not against seeing both of their perspectives, but what I don't want is some sappy monologue from Eren, or some other hero, and have that be all it takes for Zeke to be all like "omg I was wrong, i see the light now!" like so many other anime and manga have done.

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    • Penguinluver1431 wrote:
      Tdfern14 wrote:
      Penguinluver1431 wrote:
      Tdfern14 wrote:

      Penguinluver1431 wrote:



      Cheng The Nerd wrote:
      but what are the odd of Zeke even having a change of heart when he and eren walk though grisha's memories? the way i see it, zeke might see that grisha did learn his lesson and still thought about him and dina as well as regretting using him as a tool for his ideology, i still see him still going ahead with his euthanasia plan. 

      who knows, maybe whatever the yeagerbros will see in the memories will give zeke more reasons and motivation to carry out the euthanasia plan and at this point there wont be anything eren might do to stop him unless he has to resort to killing him.

      Agreed, redemption arcs are so overdone these days, people forget that it's entirely possible to have complex villains without redeeming them. I agree that Zeke being redeemed would ruin his character.
      Complex villains without redeeming them? Liken what or who for example?
      The majority of GoT characters, Azula from Avatar, most of the main villains from Legend of Korra, some villains from One Piece, and Zeke from our very own AoT, provided Isayama doesn't pull a Naruto and give redemption arcs to every villain just because they're "misunderstood"
      Okay like Amon and Zaheer, and Blackbeard & Akainu, right?

      but while Zeke isn't misunderstood per say but his perception is a bit skewered, he just doesn't see the entire picture from Eren's side of the spectrum. It's good to have both perspectives. 

      Amon and Zaheer yes, and a little bit of Blackbeard, but as far as the Admirals go I'm thinking Aokiji is more complex than Akainu since the latter is very narrow-minded in his views of absolute justice while Aokiji bounces around based on his circumstances.

      As for Zeke, I'm not against seeing both of their perspectives, but what I don't want is some sappy monologue from Eren, or some other hero, and have that be all it takes for Zeke to be all like "omg I was wrong, i see the light now!" like so many other anime and manga have done.

      yeah. it will be too cliche and i doubt if Isayama himself is for that whole redemption issue seeing what happened to people like Annie, Rod, Bertoldt and Porco.

      these homies were more or less the victims of manipulation and ideology of the society they belong to and were the ones who believed they were doing the right thing (Porco) or didnt have much of a choice (Bertoldt and Annie) but they werent giving a redemption and i'm okay with it tbh.

      And thinking realistically, people like reiner and zeke are beyond and far from the point of redemption because they're too bent on their what they believe in and think is right. so the chance of zeke euthanising the eldians is still there, zeke might find more reasons to euthanise th eldians in the trip down memory lane.

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    • but still, how can a sniper with small hole cut someone's head?

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    • maybe that's what Isayama wants us to think

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    • IndonesianPlayz wrote:
      but still, how can a sniper with small hole cut someone's head?

      You know what a hollow point bullet can do? The rifle is designed to destroy a titan's nape. So if it can do that it can easily blow off enough tissue to disconnect a human head from the body.

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    • TKGriffiths wrote:
      IndonesianPlayz wrote:
      but still, how can a sniper with small hole cut someone's head?
      You know what a hollow point bullet can do? The rifle is designed to destroy a titan's nape. So if it can do that it can easily blow off enough tissue to disconnect a human head from the body.

      holy moly

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    • Yo Hange! How come you never cooked up anti-nape rifles? XD

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:
      Yo Hange! How come you never cooked up anti-nape rifles? XD

      Probably just technology differences between the people in and out of the walls. I mean as far as fire arms go in the walls, they mainly had hunting rifles, cannons, and the Anti-Personel buckshot guns. Semi-automatic pistols were already a completely foreign concept to them once they took the first Marley fleet. Then by the time they did start getting their technology updates, they'd already past the point of needing any real anti-titan weaponry.

      That and anti-titan firearms probalby still aren't the most efficient weapon option against Titans, even Marley said it requires them to have a good opening to be of good use.

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    • True. Still, they should've thought of stuff like Thunder Spears a long time ago. I know the government was hiding that stuff away but still. And those Thunder Spears are pretty freaking useless. XP

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    • Cheng The Nerd wrote:

      Penguinluver1431 wrote:
      Tdfern14 wrote:
      Penguinluver1431 wrote:
      Tdfern14 wrote:

      Penguinluver1431 wrote:



      Cheng The Nerd wrote:
      but what are the odd of Zeke even having a change of heart when he and eren walk though grisha's memories? the way i see it, zeke might see that grisha did learn his lesson and still thought about him and dina as well as regretting using him as a tool for his ideology, i still see him still going ahead with his euthanasia plan. 

      who knows, maybe whatever the yeagerbros will see in the memories will give zeke more reasons and motivation to carry out the euthanasia plan and at this point there wont be anything eren might do to stop him unless he has to resort to killing him.

      Agreed, redemption arcs are so overdone these days, people forget that it's entirely possible to have complex villains without redeeming them. I agree that Zeke being redeemed would ruin his character.
      Complex villains without redeeming them? Liken what or who for example?
      The majority of GoT characters, Azula from Avatar, most of the main villains from Legend of Korra, some villains from One Piece, and Zeke from our very own AoT, provided Isayama doesn't pull a Naruto and give redemption arcs to every villain just because they're "misunderstood"
      Okay like Amon and Zaheer, and Blackbeard & Akainu, right?

      but while Zeke isn't misunderstood per say but his perception is a bit skewered, he just doesn't see the entire picture from Eren's side of the spectrum. It's good to have both perspectives. 

      Amon and Zaheer yes, and a little bit of Blackbeard, but as far as the Admirals go I'm thinking Aokiji is more complex than Akainu since the latter is very narrow-minded in his views of absolute justice while Aokiji bounces around based on his circumstances.

      As for Zeke, I'm not against seeing both of their perspectives, but what I don't want is some sappy monologue from Eren, or some other hero, and have that be all it takes for Zeke to be all like "omg I was wrong, i see the light now!" like so many other anime and manga have done.

      yeah. it will be too cliche and i doubt if Isayama himself is for that whole redemption issue seeing what happened to people like Annie, Rod, Bertoldt and Porco.

      these homies were more or less the victims of manipulation and ideology of the society they belong to and were the ones who believed they were doing the right thing (Porco) or didnt have much of a choice (Bertoldt and Annie) but they werent giving a redemption and i'm okay with it tbh.

      And thinking realistically, people like reiner and zeke are beyond and far from the point of redemption because they're too bent on their what they believe in and think is right. so the chance of zeke euthanising the eldians is still there, zeke might find more reasons to euthanise th eldians in the trip down memory lane.

      If it is not redemption, then what should be, penance?

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Yo Hange! How come you never cooked up anti-nape rifles? XD

      They didn't sufficient technology to make it. They do have thunder spears.

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    • Tdfern14 wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Yo Hange! How come you never cooked up anti-nape rifles? XD

      They didn't sufficient technology to make it. They do have thunder spears.

      And those Spears have been pretty crap. XD

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    • The spears work fine, they're more cumbersome but they do far more damage. The anti-titan rifle would do absolutely nothing against the Armored Titan or others that can harden their nape like the Attack, Female or Beast.

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    • TKGriffiths wrote:
      The spears work fine, they're more cumbersome but they do far more damage. The anti-titan rifle would do absolutely nothing against the Armored Titan or others that can harden their nape like the Attack, Female or Beast.

      Wouldn't be so sure about that. For all we know the ammunition they use can be designed to be quite effective even against Titan hardneing. These effectively are armor piercing rounds after all.

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    • Armor Piercing and Hollow Point aren't the same thing, in fact you sacrifice effectiveness against armor with hollow points because they're more fragile.

      Also even if the rifle did pierce the titan's nape, unlike a pure titan the nape itself isn't the weak spot of a titan shifter. You'd need to hit the shifter himself in the head within the nape which is next to impossible since they're concealed within it. Magath couldn't manage this against Zeke even with a direct hit to the nape with a massive cannon.

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    • TKGriffiths wrote: The spears work fine, they're more cumbersome but they do far more damage. The anti-titan rifle would do absolutely nothing against the Armored Titan or others that can harden their nape like the Attack, Female or Beast.

      If those Spears are so good, how come they've never scored a flat-out kill? XP That should've been Pieck's end right on the spot. Mikasa blew up Reiner point blank through the mouth. I get that these shifters are durable but seriously? XD But like I said, that definitely should've been Pieck's end.

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    • A FANDOM user
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