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    • The chapter itself was good, but it really worries me about the upcoming chapters.

      There are lots of theories about some timeloop, or time travel (like Eren being the Devil that gave Ymir her powers, making an infinite timeloop), that would be something that I hate. And when I see how many people dislike this kind of stuff in a story (except if the story has always been about that), I'm wondering why so many theories about time travel and time loops are still there. 

      This reminds me GoT, after Hold the door, dozens of theories about time travel and time loops emerged, and I'm glad it didn't happen. Same situation here, I see lot of theories, and I guess that with these chapters, there will be even more, but I hope it won't go further than Eren influencing Grisha into killing the Reiss family. Technically speaking, that wasn't time travel at all, but it's very similar in its representation/interpretation. But whatever this is, I really hope Isayama won't end with "Eren being the Devil that gave Ymir her power" or something like that. That would be too cliche, and I guess that many would hate such a thing. Stories that have been destroyed because they introduced time travel and time loops is litterally a cliché of "how to ruin your story". Seeing Gaby killing Levi, Armin, Mikasa, Hansi, Connie and Jean would still be a better thing than all this "time travel/time-loop" stuff.  

      About the chapter itself, I have questions about how Grisha managed to touch Zeke. That he saw Eren and Zeke is a thing, but having a physical contact? How?

      Also, Eren destroying his hands to get out of his chains is pretty brutal. I like it. I guess that in the anime it'll be more suggested than seen, as they always do (tho I don't really understand their censorship, it seems contradictory sometimes). It's interesting to see that in the Path world, they can be injured, but will it have an effect on their real world bodies? I don't think so.

      Also, I'm glad to see that we didn't get some memory that would make Zeke renounce his purpose. I'm glad that it wasn't even Eren's will, he knew that he wouldn't convinced his brother. I like the "back to the Path worlds" with Eren being like "Oh wait bro, you didn't see me eating dad!". 

      I like Eren re-using words of Kruger ("This is the story that you started") to force his father to kill the Reiss family.

      About the Attack Titan's power,the ability to "foresee the future", it's probably what happened with Kruger when he talked about Armin and Mikasa. Tho, he didn't really understood what he saw, and I guess this is what happens every time: they just randomly receive memories they can't understand, and nothing more. When Eren kissed Historia's hand, he received the memories from himself watching past events... Isayama did well in hiding this until now. This explains a lot about Eren new personnality, and who knows what else he might have seen? 

      PS: Will the paper version will cost more than usual XD? Because with this chapter and the previous one, lots of ink will be used to print them, more than usual chapters XD

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    • Even after all this, Zeke thinks he's in the right?

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    • Really loved this chapter. The way Grisha was able to speak to Zeke and apologize to him for how he mistreated him was very nice, and I'm glad to know that Zeke got that closure. He actually called Grisha "dad", and kept doing it a few more times until he resumed calling him Grisha.

      What I also like is how even Grisha has come to see that Eren goes down a darker path, and attempts to reach out to his first son to stop him. Although I'm not sure exactly what Eren is going to do or what his overall objective is, whether it be unleashing all of the Wall Titans like the First King threatened the world with or something else, it's clear to me that Eren has become to desensitized to the deaths of others, as well as his friends and family. 

      Now, some questions I have are how Grisha was able to see Zeke: is it because the Attack Titan's future memory inheritance ability somehow allowed him to see those who are in the Coordinate land, and if that's the case, is it just unique to the Attack Titan or all subjects of Ymir? Or did Grisha simply know where Zeke would be based on the memories he acquired from Eren?

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    • Did Attack on Titan just go Inception on us? XD XD XD

      So he got the Reiss and Ackerman families killed? Not only is that a terrible twist, that's definitely one of my least favorite chapters in a long while. Sorry but there's just so much wrong with implying Eren did all of that. What's the point of it anyway? XP

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:
      Did Attack on Titan just go Inception on us? XD XD XD

      So he got the Reiss and Ackerman families killed? Not only is that a terrible twist, that's definitely one of my least favorite chapters in a long while. Sorry but there's just so much wrong with implying Eren did all of that. What's the point of it anyway? XP

      Eren never got the Ackerman family killed. It would have be shown otherwise. We only saw Grisha discovering the bodies of the three robbers, along with Eren and Zeke, but that the aftermath of the event, and Eren didn't impact anything here. His only role was about the death of the Reiss family.

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    • Razzylada wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:
      Did Attack on Titan just go Inception on us? XD XD XD

      So he got the Reiss and Ackerman families killed? Not only is that a terrible twist, that's definitely one of my least favorite chapters in a long while. Sorry but there's just so much wrong with implying Eren did all of that. What's the point of it anyway? XP

      Eren never got the Ackerman family killed. It would have be shown otherwise. We only saw Grisha discovering the bodies of the three robbers, along with Eren and Zeke, but that the aftermath of the event, and Eren didn't impact anything here. His only role was about the death of the Reiss family.

      Fair enough but even then I am so not behind this, and I am so not behind Eren if this is his game. I just find it nonsensical that Eren had this much influence over so much of what we've so far seen. Wonder what Historia would have to say about all this, even if her family was horrible to her, minus Frieda. XP

      Never was a big Eren fan, lol. I don't think this chapter did him any favors. I think Yams should just get to the point because this is kind of a useless development. There's still a war going on isn't there? And the Coordinate, that's important. This though, this is just dumb XD

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    • Okay I am a little bit baffled here. I can understand somewhat that Eren can see the future because of his Titan ability (although I'd be lying to myself if I didn't said this whole time travel & effecting the past didn't confused the hell out of me), although what was the deal of the Grisha seeing Zeke and saying to stop Eren? But it did gave insight Eren & this whole "Paths" thing is capable of, and gave some insight into Grisha's psyche on the whole dilemma.

      Although the only thing I can take away from this chapter, a repeat down memory lane that took up almost a whole chunk of this whole chapter.

      I am worried though if this will lead to more confusing time travel b.s. like go all Matrix or Evangelion on our asses, but I doubt Isayama will go that far, presumably.

      Lastly will Eren even stop Ymir (the ghost girl) because I don't think if he will? Either A) stop her right in time), or B) bigger twist he can't stop her becoming he will just go through her because she is a ghost.

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    • He's a Beast! I call him Eren.~

      This was a suitably dark chapter. I admit, after the last chapter's ending, I'd half-expected some overtly idealistic conclusion or follow up, but this really surprised me. Eren was a real monster in this chapter (in all the right ways). In a way, everything he did is still Eren, but there's also, at the same time, some added depth.

      I have to disagree with a previous comment that Eren is disensetized to the death of others. He cried when Sasha died, the whole reason he talked to Reiner was because he'd been hesitating at the thought of killing innocent civilians and hoped to find the resolve through him, and we all saw him try to stop Zeke from using his scream. Sure, he's way calmer and more controlled than before, and his ability to hide his emotions is better than most, but he's neither heartless or an emotionless machine.

      I'm glad we FINALLY got the long-awaited answer to the most anticipated question of the recent years: the Attack Titan's power. At the start, like everybody else, I'd thought that the reason Kruger mentioned Mikasa and Armin was becuase the Paths transcended both space and time. However, it now appears the latter is unique only to the Attack Titan (and Ymir Fritz most likely). In fact, it would explain the first chapter's name, the one saying 'to you, 2000 years from now' being Ymir. Therefore, it's also possible she foresaw the Fritz family's future through the future memories of the Founding Titan successor's. It's also possible she ensured for this exact reason that one of the Nine had that particular power.

      Furthermore, when you look back on everything, it's been hinted at that only Attack Titan wielders had the power to view future memories. In the first chapter, we see exactly that happen to Eren, after which he cried, not knowing why. It also pretty much says that Isayama had planned this since the beginning. True, Eren hadn't been a shifter yet, but the Paths can be pretty flexible from what we've seen, so it's not impossible.

      Another thing of interest is Grisha begging Zeke to stop Eren, saying something terrible would happen. Many, including Zeke, think that Eren is the one that would do something terrible to others, but I find that's wrong. No, most likely, Eren's plan has something terrible happening to Eren himself. Grisha is his father, so it would explain him being so distraught. Furthermore, there was that panel of Eren saying "that scenery" with a longing look in his eyes. Despite Eren's ability to kill innocents, we've never once seen him revel in it. Both during the Liberio attack and in Grisha's memories of the attack on the Reiss family, he was only ever solemn, looking like he wished another VIABLE course had been available, but fully resigned to the fact that there was only the blood-stained path he was walking and unwilling give up because of it.

      When you look at him from multiple perspectives, Eren's a way more complicated and multi-faceted character than most give him credit for, and thsi chapter is one of the few that's especially good at showing it.

      Plus, him tearing off parts of his hands to escape the chains and reach Ymir was badass.

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    • I thought this was a well done chapter with palpable tension, great dialogue, and a couple of fascinating developments making for a fantastic read.

      Pros:

      - The biggest positive this chapter has going for it is that at least for me I found it to be wildly unpredictable and subversive which is something the series hasn't done for me in a long time (not that this is always bad). The big example of this is Zeke getting development in the form of truly understanding his father + learning to love him again but also having his shortsighted ideals reinforced through Eren's violent actions and Grisha's horrified demeanour regarding Eren's future plans. This put a quick end to any kind of redemption for Zeke which is probably for the best. Definitely think Isayama deserves props here for going the hard way rather than the easy one which most writers would.

      - My second positive is the dialogue for this chapter as it was a nice blend of ideological, witty, and horrific which is a tough blend for most writers to balance without creating tonal incoherence but Yams hit it out of the park here.

      - My last positive is that I was genuinely impressed with how dark this chapter was as it actually managed to disturb me with how brutal Eren was and how he basically violated his father's mind into committing a atrocity. The fact that Eren can be easily vindicated for this act also creates a effective moral quagmire and pushes the series into even more impressively grey areas with both Zeke and Eren being potentially morally dubious choices for now.


      Overall thoughts:

      -  This is a really great chapter with everything I like about the series in sharp dialogue, excellently executed twists, dark morally complex subject matter, and a ending that has me on the edge of my seat and thrilled to see where it goes next. I do have some minor issues with the chapter but there heavily dependent on how future chapters deal with the setup here so I didn't feel the need to bring them up.

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    • For me the whole Paths thing is pretty irrelevant. The Coordinate and stopping Ymir from doing as Zeke demands? That's important. Revealing that Eren orchestrated the majority of the series' events? That's really pushing it. I thought Chapter 120 was mostly just filler. So I wasn't too invested in that. I thought that this was unneeded. I'm just a casual viewer but Yams can be pretty ridiculous a lot of the time. XP A time-travel B-plot isn't really critical to this story. Wasn't Jean's nickname for Eren "Suicidal Bastard"? "Bastard" seems sufficient for him. XD And if all of this is to be taken as true, that adds more horror and irony to everybody who died because of and for Eren. Which is hard to stomach.

      For me the only critical scene is Zeke ordering Ymir towards the Coordinate. But that was definitely a chapter to skip. Felt like a twist for the sake of having a twist. And they've already piled up so I think this is one Yams could've taken a pass on. And like I said, this really is just AOT turning into Inception, Eren planting the decision to murder the Reiss family in his own father's head?

      So Eren has that kind of power and yet doesn't use it to save those he's lost? Or even to alter Annie's fate? Bastard, indeed. XD

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    • Ok....well i can see SO many things wrong with this that it hurts my brain!

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    • Heir of Revan wrote: Ok....well i can see SO many things wrong with this that it hurts my brain!

      I'll say. You should've seen Tumblr, pretty much the same reaction. XD

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Heir of Revan wrote: Ok....well i can see SO many things wrong with this that it hurts my brain!

      I'll say. You should've seen Tumblr, pretty much the same reaction. XD

      Yeah, well, I can accept the fact they're looking through memories. I can accept the fact that MAYBE Ghrisa can see them due to that power of the Attack Titan. But, if you expect me to buy the fact that Eren was manipulating this entire MESS the whole time and Ghrisha WANTS zeke to stop him, when there was no hint of that, NOT HAPPENING.

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    • Heir of Revan wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Heir of Revan wrote: Ok....well i can see SO many things wrong with this that it hurts my brain!

      I'll say. You should've seen Tumblr, pretty much the same reaction. XD

      Yeah, well, I can accept the fact they're looking through memories. I can accept the fact that MAYBE Ghrisa can see them due to that power of the Attack Titan. But, if you expect me to buy the fact that Eren was manipulating this entire MESS the whole time and Ghrisha WANTS zeke to stop him, when there was no hint of that, NOT HAPPENING.

      You should see all the theories flying on Tumblr that Eren knew everything that would happen down to the letter, for the most part, that everything that has happened worked exactly according to his plan or knowledge. And that nonsense including but not limited to Sasha's demise or getting his head blown off was all part of it or convenient to his intentions or whatever.

      Yams is a tricky d***, but I think he may have finally gone too far in his usual outlandishness. This really throws Eren's whole character into deeper question.

      Everyone hates an "OP" character, and this is taking things to a new extreme. I mean it's just so stupid! XD

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Heir of Revan wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Heir of Revan wrote: Ok....well i can see SO many things wrong with this that it hurts my brain!

      I'll say. You should've seen Tumblr, pretty much the same reaction. XD
      Yeah, well, I can accept the fact they're looking through memories. I can accept the fact that MAYBE Ghrisa can see them due to that power of the Attack Titan. But, if you expect me to buy the fact that Eren was manipulating this entire MESS the whole time and Ghrisha WANTS zeke to stop him, when there was no hint of that, NOT HAPPENING.

      You should see all the theories flying on Tumblr that Eren knew everything that would happen down to the letter, for the most part, that everything that has happened worked exactly according to his plan or knowledge. And that nonsense including but not limited to Sasha's demise or getting his head blown off was all part of it or convenient to his intentions or whatever.

      Yams is a tricky d***, but I think he may have finally gone too far in his usual outlandishness. This really throws Eren's whole character into deeper question.

      Everyone hates an "OP" character, and this is taking things to a new extreme. I mean it's just so stupid! XD

      Stupid with a capital "S"



      besides, I'm pretty sure Eren would NEVER do this and besides, Yams was being a total dick ever since that stupid "curse of ymir" crap

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    • Here's to me being right about what this guy represents, and whoever it was that argued with me, I win the duel!

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    • I think the implication of this chapter is that Eren was working off information he acquired when he touched Historia's hand way back in chapter 88 or 89 and he took the path he felt was best to achieve the future he saw (I assume it was him & Zeke in the paths right when Grisha killed the Reiss family) rather than galaxy braining his way to victory down to the finest detail. For example I doubt a true mastermind would have created a chaotic and poorly assembled faction like the Yeagerists who were so painfully bad at their objective (unite Zeke & Eren) that they nearly got Eren & Zeke killed due to strategic ineptitude in the last fight. I also think that this series hasn't really jumped the shark as everything seen in these last two chapters is clearly in bounds of what the series has done up to this point and was set up 30 + or more chapters in advance (Ex. To you 2000 years from now and Kruger saying "Save Mikasa & Armin") rather than appearing out of nowhere. 

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    • Freeman1378 wrote:
      I think the implication of this chapter is that Eren was working off information he acquired when he touched Historia's hand way back in chapter 88 or 89 and he took the path he felt was best to achieve the future he saw (I assume it was him & Zeke in the paths right when Grisha killed the Reiss family) rather than galaxy braining his way to victory down to the finest detail. For example I doubt a true mastermind would have created a chaotic and poorly assembled faction like the Yeagerists who were so painfully bad at their objective (unite Zeke & Eren) that they nearly got Eren & Zeke killed due to strategic ineptitude in the last fight. I also think that this series hasn't really jumped the shark as everything seen in these last two chapters is clearly in bounds of what the series has done up to this point and was set up 30 + or more chapters in advance (Ex. To you 2000 years from now and Kruger saying "Save Mikasa & Armin") rather than appearing out of nowhere. 

      I will agree that the yeagerists were painfully bad at maintaining themselves as a good organization.

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    • Whalordius TDD wrote: Here's to me being right about what this guy represents, and whoever it was that argued with me, I win the duel!

      LOLwut? XD

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    • Me and some guy argued over what the attack titan represents.

      He said freedom, I said the future.

      This chapter confirmed m belief, so I celebrated

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    • Or does it represent slavery? Is Eren a slave to its will? No one knows that yet! XD

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    • Yo, remember when this was a series about wiping out giant man-eating freaks of nature and not about time travel?

      Dude, what the flying F happened? XP

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Yo, remember when this was a series about wiping out giant man-eating freaks of nature and not about time travel?

      Dude, what the flying F happened? XP

      It got far better and more complex. Chapters 120-121 are definitely my favorites in the whole series.

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    • CaptFredricks wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Yo, remember when this was a series about wiping out giant man-eating freaks of nature and not about time travel?

      Dude, what the flying F happened? XP

      It got far better and more complex. Chapters 120-121 are definitely my favorites in the whole series.

      Lol hard disagreement there. I thought those were two of the worst. XD

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      CaptFredricks wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Yo, remember when this was a series about wiping out giant man-eating freaks of nature and not about time travel?

      Dude, what the flying F happened? XP

      It got far better and more complex. Chapters 120-121 are definitely my favorites in the whole series.

      Lol hard disagreement there. I thought those were two of the worst. XD

      Interesting... well, everyone does have different tastes.

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    • CaptFredricks wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      CaptFredricks wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Yo, remember when this was a series about wiping out giant man-eating freaks of nature and not about time travel?

      Dude, what the flying F happened? XP

      It got far better and more complex. Chapters 120-121 are definitely my favorites in the whole series.

      Lol hard disagreement there. I thought those were two of the worst. XD

      Interesting... well, everyone does have different tastes.

      I definitely was not impressed. I'm a casual reader and I found it to be filler. Bloated, overly complex filler. Eren manipulating Zeke to get him to the pasts is one thing but implying everything to happen up to now was all according to Eren's plan, including the murder of the Reiss family feels contrived. DX To me that explanation doesn't solve any purpose. Like I said I ain't a hardcore reader but even if I was....sorry I just shook my head at this one XP

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote: I definitely was not impressed. I'm a casual reader and I found it to be filler. Bloated, overly complex filler. Eren manipulating Zeke to get him to the pasts is one thing but implying everything to happen up to now was all according to Eren's plan, including the murder of the Reiss family feels contrived. DX To me that explanation doesn't solve any purpose. Like I said I ain't a hardcore reader but even if I was....sorry I just shook my head at this one XP

      Not to come off as rude, but being a self-labelled "casual reader" might mean you have missed/forgotten some things from past arcs.

      For example, Eren having this type of knowledge of things both past and present has been hinted at multiple times (even going back to chapter 1). We also got hints about the users of the Attack Titan being able to convey information to previous users back in Grisha's flashback with Eren Kruger.

      So, what I'm trying to say is, none of this stuff is contrived. Big time plot twists, sure, but to those paying close attention, there are definitely bread crumbs that have led up to here. The best kind of plot twists work like that. Give you just enough to suspect things, but don't come full circle until the big reveal.

      I'd say it serves the purpose of showing that Eren truly is the centerpiece of this story, and why this story will conclude with him still at the center. I personally think 120-121 are a brilliant piece of storytelling, but again, tastes are different.

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    • But Why is Eren doing all this? Everything... the attack on Marley, Yelena, Zick... going rouge, the war, all that. It always seem like he has a goal. Like how passionate he is. He wants something. Badly. Going as far as to rip his own thumbs off to stop Zeke... But what is it?  

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    • Not sure how the PATHs still work half the time, but I will say a few positive things about this chapter:

      -Though I was still confused, Gabi was a no-show once again, and that's always aces in my book

      -Eren convincing Grisha to slaughter the Reiss family and take the Founding Titan. After seeing their resignation to accepting the "sins" of Eldians, I have a newfound appreciation for what Grisha did, or more specifically what Eren convinced him to do.

      -Sounds like Eren really is going to go through with the Rumbling. Fingers crossed, good sir.

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    • I love what is called a stable time loop. It's the only kind of time travel fiction I can tolerate, because there is no going back in time and "changing" the past, because what happened in the past already happened even if it involved some element of time travel from the future. That is the kind that Chapter 121 uses. (If you don't understand, the comic in the link I added illustrates it pretty well.)

      The stable time loop is nice because it avoids paradoxes. Any "change" is already incorporated into the timeline and it has always existed this way, and I think this was a smart choice on Isayama's part. It also gives Eren a reason to have drastically changed in the time that he has.

      Year 850 Eren got Grisha's memories of Year 854 Eren at the moment he kissed Historia's hand, which happens towards the end of the Return to Shiganshina arc. With Yelena's arrival shortly thereafter in 851, Year 851 Eren would have been able to piece together what he'd seen in the memory he got from Grisha with what was about to happen (allying with Zeke).

      Zeke's correct in that Eren's knowledge is limited, and in fact the Attack Titan's power has only helped Eren send things back (Eren has not received any future knowledge except through Grisha, which falls under the usual being able to see the memory of previous inheritors), which neatly restricts his powers, but what I dislike is that we weren't given most of this back in chapter 90 when Eren originally kissed Historia's hand. It feels like a bit of a cheat, since we get part of it, and since we're in Eren's POV when it happens, we should have gotten the rest of it.

      Obviously the entire thing happens in a moment in real time, but it could have been cool to have bits and pieces of it placed like fragments without context, so we'd know that something really weird happened there. It's possible Isayama did not have all of this planned out then (since people have been making a lot of comparisons to GoT), but I'm pretty sure he had some of it done, for one particular reason.

      We learn that the night Wall Maria fell, Grisha came to the Reiss family and pleaded for Frieda to kill the Titans so his family could be saved. There are two problems with this. 1) Grisha knows that Wall Maria has fallen in a matter of hours of it happening (remember he was away from home on a trip) and 2) Grisha does not know that Carla is already dead. It's still light out when she dies, and Grisha only meets Frieda at night.

      If Grisha was anywhere near Wall Maria when it fell, he probably would have run home to his family instead of booking it to the King. But at nightfall he's confronting the Reiss family under the chapel, which is completely on the other side of the capital city from Shiganshina. That's a hell of a trek for Grisha to make if he had firsthand knowledge of the Wall.

      But with Chapter 121, what looked like a bit of sloppy plotting/timekeeping actually makes sense. Grisha didn't need to be near the Wall when Shiganshina fell, because Eren gave him the memory. And since Eren didn't (or wasn't able to) show him everything, Grisha's concern about his family rather than his children (since Carla is already dead) makes sense.

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    • CaptFredricks wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote: I definitely was not impressed. I'm a casual reader and I found it to be filler. Bloated, overly complex filler. Eren manipulating Zeke to get him to the pasts is one thing but implying everything to happen up to now was all according to Eren's plan, including the murder of the Reiss family feels contrived. DX To me that explanation doesn't solve any purpose. Like I said I ain't a hardcore reader but even if I was....sorry I just shook my head at this one XP

      Not to come off as rude, but being a self-labelled "casual reader" might mean you have missed/forgotten some things from past arcs.

      For example, Eren having this type of knowledge of things both past and present has been hinted at multiple times (even going back to chapter 1). We also got hints about the users of the Attack Titan being able to convey information to previous users back in Grisha's flashback with Eren Kruger.

      So, what I'm trying to say is, none of this stuff is contrived. Big time plot twists, sure, but to those paying close attention, there are definitely bread crumbs that have led up to here. The best kind of plot twists work like that. Give you just enough to suspect things, but don't come full circle until the big reveal.

      I'd say it serves the purpose of showing that Eren truly is the centerpiece of this story, and why this story will conclude with him still at the center. I personally think 120-121 are a brilliant piece of storytelling, but again, tastes are different.

      Well if you understand that our tastes are different then you understand that I am not impressed by anything you said. I don't see the point. The story has drilled in more than enough times that Eren is the epicenter of this saga so it is completely unnecessary. As are a lot of those aforementioned breadcrumbs. I thought the time loop thing was stupid the first time it came up when Kruger mentioned Armin and Mikasa. Sorry but the whole thing is superfluous. We're talking bad fanfiction type nonsense here. XD

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    • Klaroliner7 wrote: But Why is Eren doing all this? Everything... the attack on Marley, Yelena, Zick... going rouge, the war, all that. It always seem like he has a goal. Like how passionate he is. He wants something. Badly. Going as far as to rip his own thumbs off to stop Zeke... But what is it?  

      Eren's a traitor. That's the sum of it. He was always kind of a s**t character. Sorry guys but I am not one of those guys who fawns over Eren Yeager. He was never my favorite in all this and I do think he has to die before any lasting peace can be realized.

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Klaroliner7 wrote: But Why is Eren doing all this? Everything... the attack on Marley, Yelena, Zick... going rouge, the war, all that. It always seem like he has a goal. Like how passionate he is. He wants something. Badly. Going as far as to rip his own thumbs off to stop Zeke... But what is it?  

      Eren's a traitor. That's the sum of it. He was always kind of a s**t character. Sorry guys but I am not one of those guys who fawns over Eren Yeager. He was never my favorite in all this and I do think he has to die before any lasting peace can be realized.

      I have a theory that he's the reincarnation of he devil of all earth, or maybe he was influenced by it in the timeskip.

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    • If only Mikasa could see what Eren's been up to. If she stayed by his side even after that, I'd have to say she has Stockholm Syndrome XP

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    • Whalordius TDD wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Klaroliner7 wrote: But Why is Eren doing all this? Everything... the attack on Marley, Yelena, Zick... going rouge, the war, all that. It always seem like he has a goal. Like how passionate he is. He wants something. Badly. Going as far as to rip his own thumbs off to stop Zeke... But what is it?  

      Eren's a traitor. That's the sum of it. He was always kind of a s**t character. Sorry guys but I am not one of those guys who fawns over Eren Yeager. He was never my favorite in all this and I do think he has to die before any lasting peace can be realized.

      I have a theory that he's the reincarnation of he devil of all earth, or maybe he was influenced by it in the timeskip.

      Well if Reiner was ever right about anything, it's that Eren can't be trusted with this kind of power. And now the Coordinate is at stake.

      So what was Eren's plan here if there was no guarantee he could actually stop Ymir from carrying out Zeke's will? He spent the better part of that crazy trip gloating to his mortal enemy. Which gave Zeke the time to command Ymir.

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Whalordius TDD wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Klaroliner7 wrote: But Why is Eren doing all this? Everything... the attack on Marley, Yelena, Zick... going rouge, the war, all that. It always seem like he has a goal. Like how passionate he is. He wants something. Badly. Going as far as to rip his own thumbs off to stop Zeke... But what is it?  

      Eren's a traitor. That's the sum of it. He was always kind of a s**t character. Sorry guys but I am not one of those guys who fawns over Eren Yeager. He was never my favorite in all this and I do think he has to die before any lasting peace can be realized.
      I have a theory that he's the reincarnation of he devil of all earth, or maybe he was influenced by it in the timeskip.
      Well if Reiner was ever right about anything, it's that Eren can't be trusted with this kind of power. And now the Coordinate is at stake.

      So what was Eren's plan here if there was no guarantee he could actually stop Ymir from carrying out Zeke's will? He spent the better part of that crazy trip gloating to his mortal enemy. Which gave Zeke the time to command Ymir.

      He has already seen his own memories of... whatever his plan is being enacted, so he knows that he is going to succeed somehow. Eren basically has confirmation that whatever he does from here on out will be exactly what needs to happen to fulfill his vision of the future.

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    • Neetaku wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Whalordius TDD wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Klaroliner7 wrote: But Why is Eren doing all this? Everything... the attack on Marley, Yelena, Zick... going rouge, the war, all that. It always seem like he has a goal. Like how passionate he is. He wants something. Badly. Going as far as to rip his own thumbs off to stop Zeke... But what is it?  

      Eren's a traitor. That's the sum of it. He was always kind of a s**t character. Sorry guys but I am not one of those guys who fawns over Eren Yeager. He was never my favorite in all this and I do think he has to die before any lasting peace can be realized.
      I have a theory that he's the reincarnation of he devil of all earth, or maybe he was influenced by it in the timeskip.
      Well if Reiner was ever right about anything, it's that Eren can't be trusted with this kind of power. And now the Coordinate is at stake.

      So what was Eren's plan here if there was no guarantee he could actually stop Ymir from carrying out Zeke's will? He spent the better part of that crazy trip gloating to his mortal enemy. Which gave Zeke the time to command Ymir.

      He has already seen his own memories of... whatever his plan is being enacted, so he knows that he is going to succeed somehow. Eren basically has confirmation that whatever he does from here on out will be exactly what needs to happen to fulfill his vision of the future.

      I still can't get over how ridiculous this chapter is. XD That's some massively OP shit right there, guys. XP But I can safely say Eren has totally lost it.

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    • What I love here is the sheer irony of the Attack Titan. A Titan that's said to be uncontrolled by anyone, always striving for freedom, yet due to the stable time loop it itself created the Attack Titan really has no free will and is the only one even aware of it. Just like how the Founder is enslaved by the will of a past holder, the Attack Titan is enslaved by the will of a future holder.

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Neetaku wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Whalordius TDD wrote:


      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Klaroliner7 wrote: But Why is Eren doing all this? Everything... the attack on Marley, Yelena, Zick... going rouge, the war, all that. It always seem like he has a goal. Like how passionate he is. He wants something. Badly. Going as far as to rip his own thumbs off to stop Zeke... But what is it?  

      Eren's a traitor. That's the sum of it. He was always kind of a s**t character. Sorry guys but I am not one of those guys who fawns over Eren Yeager. He was never my favorite in all this and I do think he has to die before any lasting peace can be realized.
      I have a theory that he's the reincarnation of he devil of all earth, or maybe he was influenced by it in the timeskip.
      Well if Reiner was ever right about anything, it's that Eren can't be trusted with this kind of power. And now the Coordinate is at stake.

      So what was Eren's plan here if there was no guarantee he could actually stop Ymir from carrying out Zeke's will? He spent the better part of that crazy trip gloating to his mortal enemy. Which gave Zeke the time to command Ymir.

      He has already seen his own memories of... whatever his plan is being enacted, so he knows that he is going to succeed somehow. Eren basically has confirmation that whatever he does from here on out will be exactly what needs to happen to fulfill his vision of the future.

      I still can't get over how ridiculous this chapter is. XD That's some massively OP shit right there, guys. XP But I can safely say Eren has totally lost it.

      But he is sane. Come on, you know he is up to somthing. Every action that a person takes, happens for a reason. And Eren has a hell of a reason from what is seems...

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    • Klaroliner7 wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Neetaku wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Whalordius TDD wrote:


      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Klaroliner7 wrote: But Why is Eren doing all this? Everything... the attack on Marley, Yelena, Zick... going rouge, the war, all that. It always seem like he has a goal. Like how passionate he is. He wants something. Badly. Going as far as to rip his own thumbs off to stop Zeke... But what is it?  

      Eren's a traitor. That's the sum of it. He was always kind of a s**t character. Sorry guys but I am not one of those guys who fawns over Eren Yeager. He was never my favorite in all this and I do think he has to die before any lasting peace can be realized.
      I have a theory that he's the reincarnation of he devil of all earth, or maybe he was influenced by it in the timeskip.
      Well if Reiner was ever right about anything, it's that Eren can't be trusted with this kind of power. And now the Coordinate is at stake.

      So what was Eren's plan here if there was no guarantee he could actually stop Ymir from carrying out Zeke's will? He spent the better part of that crazy trip gloating to his mortal enemy. Which gave Zeke the time to command Ymir.

      He has already seen his own memories of... whatever his plan is being enacted, so he knows that he is going to succeed somehow. Eren basically has confirmation that whatever he does from here on out will be exactly what needs to happen to fulfill his vision of the future.

      I still can't get over how ridiculous this chapter is. XD That's some massively OP shit right there, guys. XP But I can safely say Eren has totally lost it.

      But he is sane. Come on, you know he is up to somthing. Every action that a person takes, happens for a reason. And Eren has a hell of a reason from what is seems...

      How can you be so sure? This is Eren we're talking about.

      Hate to be a cynic but seeing how I don't fawn over Eren I have to take a more critical look at the guy. Why should we be on his side again? XP Maybe he wants to stop Zeke's plan but that seems to be the extent of his "pure" intentions.

      What's Grisha's game? He tells Zeke to stop Eren, the Eldia restoration is done and over if the euthanasia is realized. Eren f'ed up somewhere because now Zeke and Grisha are gambling with Eldia's survival.

      I read through the chapter once. And I am still at a loss as to the sheer stupidity of this latest twist. It's still wholly inimportant to have this time loop crap on top of everything else here. Are the Marley even still relevant?

      At some point you gotta say "Yams this is overkill". We are at overkill XP Bigtime lol.

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    • I've got a theory:  Is Eren planning to remove the ability of Titanification from all Eldians instead of going with Zeke's plan?

      Also, even if all Eldians, and thus all Titans, in the world are dead and extinct, what about the Earth Devil?  It could still create another kind of creature.

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    • Drivebladesman
      Drivebladesman removed this reply because:
      Not all that necessary in hindsight.
      20:13, September 10, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Drivebladesman wrote:
      I've got a theory:  Is Eren planning to remove the ability of Titanification from all Eldians instead of going with Zeke's plan?

      Also, even if all Eldians, and thus all Titans, in the world are dead and extinct, what about the Earth Devil?  It could still create another kind of creature.

      Well, at first, this theory is what I thought was Zeke's and Eren's plan before the release of chapter 114. After this chapter, I was thinking that it was Eren's plan. And it still might be. But before that, he'll probably want to use the Rumbling. 

      And the Earth Devil... It's 100% a legend. There's no way such a being really exists in AoT's universe. Tbh, "Earth Devil" being just a mythological figure and not real is something that seems accurate for most of people. It is even said in the first sentences of its wiki page: "is a figure of Eldian mythology". Maybe the Devil is the personnification of something (The Path, The Coordinate, The Source of All Living Matter), but not an actual historical character.

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    • Razzylada wrote:
      Drivebladesman wrote:
      I've got a theory:  Is Eren planning to remove the ability of Titanification from all Eldians instead of going with Zeke's plan?

      Also, even if all Eldians, and thus all Titans, in the world are dead and extinct, what about the Earth Devil?  It could still create another kind of creature.

      Well, at first, this theory is what I thought was Zeke's and Eren's plan before the release of chapter 114. After this chapter, I was thinking that it was Eren's plan. And it still might be. But before that, he'll probably want to use the Rumbling. 

      And the Earth Devil... It's 100% a legend. There's no way such a being really exists in AoT's universe. Tbh, "Earth Devil" being just a mythological figure and not real is something that seems accurate for most of people. It is even said in the first sentences of its wiki page: "is a figure of Eldian mythology". Maybe the Devil is the personnification of something (The Path, The Coordinate, The Source of All Living Matter), but not an actual historical character.

      Interesting.  I've always thought that the Earth Devil is just another name for the Source (I didn't even consider the possibility that the Source isn't a conscious being).  Even so, there's still a chance that the Source could create a brand new kind of creature, so Zeke's sterilization plan isn't fullproof in terms of ridding the world of the Titans' influence.

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    • NOTE: Apologies to those of you unfamiliar with Norse mythology, and to those of you who are experts.

      I'm beginning to think more and more about the Norse mythology themes of Attack on Titan. The "time travel," which is more like projecting through time, and the point at which the series is at makes me think there may be a true Ragnarok. What's happening with the Marleyans and the Paradisians is nothing compared to Eren's twitchy urge to release death upon the world that he more or less justifiably faults as being responsible for his imprisonment. I personally think that the Wall Titans destroying the other nations would just be the beginning of Eren's wrath, but who knows. His hatred is seemingly limitless, and he doesnt seem to care about breaking the cycle of endless torment so much as destroying everything he blames for his self-proclaimed enslavement. 

      But all this time stuff got me thinking about Jormungandr (spelled several different ways), the giant serpent. In the general description of the Norse mythology, Jormungandr and Thor fight killing each other in their final battle, while a baby version of Jormungandr is sent back in time before Ragnarok. Will someone (or something) somehow be sent into the past? Was (or is) there really a Devil lurking about Attack on Titan's equivalent of Yggdrasil, the reality-connecting tree, or was it just Eren (or someone we didn't expect) all along?

      What I'm pretty sure of, however, is that if there is a time loop, it has an ending for each "cycle." It just has to be set off in order to ensure that things go the way they're supposed to. Or if it is supposedly endless, Eren or another person will somehow break it once and for all. That's just my opinion, though.

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    • Well everyone long speculated on the likelihood of a time loop. Now that it is here I have to say there are so many problems with having such a thing present.

      So I will say cut to the chase guys. Forget Norse mythology and the whole psychological war going on here. What outcome is this buildi g up to? In simple terms. Eren's hair doesn't get this much blather XD

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Heir of Revan wrote: Ok....well i can see SO many things wrong with this that it hurts my brain!

      I'll say. You should've seen Tumblr, pretty much the same reaction. XD

      There is a Attack on Titan page on Tumblr?

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    • Penguinluver1431 wrote: Not sure how the PATHs still work half the time, but I will say a few positive things about this chapter:

      -Though I was still confused, Gabi was a no-show once again, and that's always aces in my book

      -Eren convincing Grisha to slaughter the Reiss family and take the Founding Titan. After seeing their resignation to accepting the "sins" of Eldians, I have a newfound appreciation for what Grisha did, or more specifically what Eren convinced him to do.

      -Sounds like Eren really is going to go through with the Rumbling. Fingers crossed, good sir.

      As expected of Penguin luver!!

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    • Tdfern14
      Tdfern14 removed this reply because:
      Redundant
      00:49, September 13, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Timjer wrote: What I love here is the sheer irony of the Attack Titan. A Titan that's said to be uncontrolled by anyone, always striving for freedom, yet due to the stable time loop it itself created the Attack Titan really has no free will and is the only one even aware of it. Just like how the Founder is enslaved by the will of a past holder, the Attack Titan is enslaved by the will of a future holder.

      Isn't that like the same thing as the other Titans themselves as they don't have free will like Armoured or Female Titan powers?

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    • Tdfern14 wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      Heir of Revan wrote: Ok....well i can see SO many things wrong with this that it hurts my brain!

      I'll say. You should've seen Tumblr, pretty much the same reaction. XD

      There is a Attack on Titan page on Tumblr?

      Yeah about a million of them, pick one XD

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    • @RuneLai

      To be honest Stable Time loop is a good story element but in this series case, it still feels like it's pushing it a bit.

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    • It's a little more science fictional than AoT usually gets, but because we had Kruger hearing about Mikasa and Armin, the groundwork for seeing the future and thus affecting the past was laid out back in Chapter 89.

      So learning that the Attack Titan's special ability was to see future memories was not really pushing it for me. It's was just confirming what I already suspected.

      It's not surprising that seeing the future is going to affect a person's behavior. We don't know what Kruger saw specifically (though it would be nice if that comes up at some point), but it was obviously from the future, and he mentioned Armin and Mikasa to Grisha, who no doubt remembered those names when he met the two for the first time.

      You could reasonably argue that the reason he took in Mikasa at all is because he knew from Kruger that he's supposed to protect someone by that name.

      Because of Chapter 89, I feel like there was juuuuust enough groundwork laid that Chapter 121 was not too much of a stretch. Instead, the part that was giving my brain exercise was cycling the parameters for how the memories were coming together.

      Like I didn't realize that the reason Grisha never sees adult Eren in his memories is because he's literally seeing Eren's memories through Eren's eyes (so unless Eren is facing a mirror there's no reason for Grisha to see him). This probably would have worked better in a novel, but in a manga you rarely draw first person POV, so we have all these scenes in Grisha's memories from angles that never Grisha nor Eren is actually experiencing these events from.

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    • Tdfern14 wrote:

      Timjer wrote: What I love here is the sheer irony of the Attack Titan. A Titan that's said to be uncontrolled by anyone, always striving for freedom, yet due to the stable time loop it itself created the Attack Titan really has no free will and is the only one even aware of it. Just like how the Founder is enslaved by the will of a past holder, the Attack Titan is enslaved by the will of a future holder.

      Isn't that like the same thing as the other Titans themselves as they don't have free will like Armoured or Female Titan powers?

      Actually, they do have free will. They may be able to see the memories of previous holders, yes, but they aren't controlled by them like the Founder or the Attack Titan are.

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    • Well if Eren's already seen the future, you could say that everyone in the world is locked into their actions that lead to that future. They just don't KNOW that their 'choices' are predetermined.

      It's not like Grisha was forced to kill the Reiss family by the time loop, he chose to do it because it was his plan when he went there, and Eren reaffirmed the reasons he already had to do it.

      You can argue which 'came first', the 'choice' or the 'future', but I'm saying the nature of this question is no different for the Attack Titan than to anyone else.

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    • I can´t understand how Eren can change the past. I understand the Attack Titan power fo see the future, but I can´t see how Eren talked to his father in that memory and changed the past.

      Is it the power of the founding titan?

      Or is it because Eren touching Historia´s hands saw the past of the original titans inheritors, thus seeing his father´s past, including seeing the memory of his father seeing the future memory of them inside his memories and them talked to him, because his father could see him in those future memories.

      It got me a little confused.

      Can someone explain this to me?

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    • Jadoo666 wrote: I can´t understand how Eren can change the past. I understand the Attack Titan power fo see the future, but I can´t see how Eren talked to his father in that memory and changed the past.

      Is it the power of the founding titan?

      Or is it because Eren touching Historia´s hands saw the past of the original titans inheritors, thus seeing his father´s past, including seeing the memory of his father seeing the future memory of them inside his memories and them talked to him, because his father could see him in those future memories.

      It got me a little confused.

      Can someone explain this to me?

      As if any of that was supposed to add up XP Get us back to the war, Yamnuts. Because that was definitely going too far.

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    • Jadoo666 wrote:
      I can´t understand how Eren can change the past. I understand the Attack Titan power fo see the future, but I can´t see how Eren talked to his father in that memory and changed the past.

      Can someone explain this to me?

      My understanding of it is that Grisha's Attack Titan is the thing allowing him to interact with future Eren/Zeke. Eren being a future Attack Titan holder is giving Grisha a 'window' into future Eren's time if you like.

      What Grisha is experiencing is like a superposition of his real world, and the future memory of Eren/Zeke exploring the memory of the moment he's currently in at the same time. That's my take on it anyway. Even when he was interacting with Zeke, Eren was the one giving him the 'window' to do this since he was still there witnessing the scene and thus giving Grisha the future memory to witness it too.

      Like ye technically Grisha would have the memory from Eren's point of view, but I think his brain is filling in the blanks to construct the scene from a viewpoint that his brain can process.

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    • Jadoo666 wrote: I can´t understand how Eren can change the past. I understand the Attack Titan power fo see the future, but I can´t see how Eren talked to his father in that memory and changed the past.

      There are a couple of problems in that you're looking at the story the wrong way. As Zeke says, you can't change the past, and Eren didn't. He made the past happen. I don't agree 100% with everything in this post, but there's a really good infographic on Reddit (click to see the spoiler) that breaks down how the time travel works in Attack on Titan. The images and stick figure comics should help you a lot with the visualization if you can't do it on your own.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/d1q0v9/manga_spoilers_the_complete_guide_to_chapter_121/

      The post showcases how time travel works in Attack on Titan versus time travel in other media and then how/why Eren is able to interact with this father.

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    • He didn't change the past, but he made the past happen, that makes NO sense. DX

      Either he did or he didn't. The way I see it, we are not getting the full story or scope of this newly revealed ability. It's still a pretty ridiculous twist, on the count that the story doesn't "need" this as a plot element.

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote: He didn't change the past, but he made the past happen, that makes NO sense. DX

      It works with a fixed timeline/stable time loop. You might not like it, but it's one of the established types of time travel in fiction. The first Terminator movie makes use of it (Kyle Reese goes back in time and becomes John Conner's father, without which John Conner could never have sent him back in time in the first place). Maybe you didn't like that movie either, but the fact remains that this is not something new that Isayama made up. In fact, this is the only type of time travel that Einstein thought might be realistically possible because it means paradoxes cannot happen, because you can't change the past (or the future if you know it).

      Zeke's words support that without Eren's interference the past wouldn't have happened. He sees Grisha doesn't want to kill the Reiss family and that Grisha's current course of action would deviate from history, which he considers impossible. Then Eren gives "the talk" to Grisha, and Grisha follows through, making history occur exactly as we know it.

      If Eren did not interfere, a different timeline would have happened, and it would be radically different, since the Reiss family would have survived and Frieda would have kept the Founding Titan. That didn't happen. By interfering, Eren preserved the existing timeline, thus he made the past happen the way it did.

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    • Who said I didn't like it? I didn't even see that movie in its entirety. The sequel though rocks.

      I'm really not buying it. Because that is a very real way of changing the past, who knows what Grisha would have done without Eren's voice in his head.

      I may not be Einstein, but I have to criticize Yamsicle when he does something stupid. This is one of them. I can't work around that logic nor am I going to try. XP

      Worst chapter since 105, and for me it's in my bottom five.

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    • I may not take this story that seriously, but the story's plenty complex enough without this added to the mix, this is really padding things with stuff that really isn't needed, what real difference would there be to the narrative without the latest yarn about "Eren manipulated Grisha"? As far as I'm concerned, we've got another chapter of filler that doesn't really advance anything. The only part that does is Zeke commanding Ymir Fritz to do the very thing Eren is supposedly trying to stop. Otherwise I just find this to be filler like the previous chapter. Frustrating filler. I mean I had to laugh when it became clear that yes, the time loop thing was real after all. But I cannot work my mind around how Yams can keep piling this up when we are in the final arc. Just get to the point of it. I repeat my earlier concern that a lot is not going to be neatly wrapped up or addressed before this is over. And it's because we keep skewing off into directions like this that I have to wonder what's supposed to be relevant and what isn't. Dude is trying way too hard, it's so overkill that it's almost hilarious. XD

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    • So let's say Eren saw everything up to the moment his head got blown off, which I presume is what has been implied with this chapter. Everything up to getting actual access to the Paths, which some say is why he didn't dodge Gabi's shot. So he must've know Gabi would enter at some point as some kind of interference that would unknowingly further along his plans to unite with Zeke and access the Coordinate. So if the dude knew how he was gonna actually get to that point, which means knowing Gabi would be the last of many mechanisms to fulfilling that objective, then how come the guy who once told his friends "I want you all to live long lives" could not see that this girl was gonna kill Sasha in entering that domino effect he was committed to seeing carried out? He missed that detail somewhere or did he truly not anticipate Gabi? Which sounds unlikely given what this chapter implies about his knowledge of the past/future. Or why's he even bothering to shield the survivors of his band inside Shiganshina? How far does this guy's foresight go or not go?

      I still smell TRAITOR all over this pretty boy. We'll leave Einstein's time travel theory to Einstein, this still doesn't add up. I'm sure I'm missing details here but the absurdity is hard to overcome. If not a conscious traitor, then a traitor through his negligence.

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    • Eren can't see the entire future, he just gets random glimpses of it. Also the future that he chooses (that is, his own actions that he chooses) is always the one that was going to happen anyway. That's just how it works. If seeing the future is the thing that caused him to act that way, that's also fine. He didn't change the future by doing that because that was always going to be the future, he was always going to do that action. Doesn't matter if the motivation for the action was seeing the future. 

      There's never any reason for these guys to change the future 'just because lets fuck the timeline', the choices that make the future happen as they saw it are ones they already had the motivations to make anyway. Grisha telling Zeke to stop Eren won't change anything, he was 'destined' to say that if you like just like the future he's trying to stop is 'destined' to happen.

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    • Okay I'm done trying to make sense of any of this, I'm just gonna assume Yams was drunk writing this. XP

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    • But you did a splendid job showcasing exactly why this plot twist is an idiotic revelation in the first place, TKGriffiths. It serves no purpose. XD

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    • Well ye on a cosmic scale it 'doesn't matter' in the sense that the future is already set in stone. But it always was anyway. Just because some characters have seen some of the future doesn't take away from the drama and intrigue that happens on the journey to that future.

      From a storytelling aspect it wasn't pointless at all. Zeke and Eren got new interactions with each other and with Grisha, which develops them as characters. Possibly even changes their motivations regarding what they're going to do and their opinions of Grisha, particularly in Zeke's case

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    • Objection, seeing how Zeke is still moving forward with this euthanasia plan. Nothing fundamental was accomplished with this, except Eren definitely looks more like a villain every day due to chapters like this. But I know what they usually tell you if you don't like what Isayama does, "we just don't appreciate the complexity of his work" or something to that effect is usually the retort. Kind of unfair I think. XP

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    • Tdfern14
      Tdfern14 removed this reply because:
      Just a dumb comment
      03:41, September 22, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Okay I'm done trying to make sense of any of this, I'm just gonna assume Yams was drunk writing this. XP

      It seems like this largely boils down to the fixed timeline concept. You don't like or understand how it works, therefore the story is not enjoyable for you. (And it's fine that you don't, but it doesn't mean Isayama was drunk.)

      But for people who do follow this sort of thing, the storytelling is fine, and for us it's pretty clear that Isayama knows the rules of this type of time travel so it's okay. I actually became a big fan of fixed timeline time travel back in high school when I read the Dragonriders of Pern series and the protagonists pulled some crazy stuff because they had circumstantial knowledge that they had gone back in time and had succeeding in doing something, therefore they went back in time and did it, creating their present day circumstances (and subsequently saving the day).

      It's not much different from what Eren's doing. This sort of time travel has been around in fiction for decades. It's just not as popular because people like being able to change the past, and the very nature of fixed time travel is that it won't. Any perceived interference just leads to the same future.

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    • RuneLai wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote: Okay I'm done trying to make sense of any of this, I'm just gonna assume Yams was drunk writing this. XP

      It seems like this largely boils down to the fixed timeline concept. You don't like or understand how it works, therefore the story is not enjoyable for you. (And it's fine that you don't, but it doesn't mean Isayama was drunk.)

      But for people who do follow this sort of thing, the storytelling is fine, and for us it's pretty clear that Isayama knows the rules of this type of time travel so it's okay. I actually became a big fan of fixed timeline time travel back in high school when I read the Dragonriders of Pern series and the protagonists pulled some crazy stuff because they had circumstantial knowledge that they had gone back in time and had succeeding in doing something, therefore they went back in time and did it, creating their present day circumstances (and subsequently saving the day).

      It's not much different from what Eren's doing. This sort of time travel has been around in fiction for decades. It's just not as popular because people like being able to change the past, and the very nature of fixed time travel is that it won't. Any perceived interference just leads to the same future.

      Yeah. it's a chapter that's pretty shit I thought. XP

      LOL, well I think you're lending too much thinking to this saga and I think Isayama is demanding a little too much of it from us. I always found it to be a little heavyhanded at times, but I always had a good laugh at just how absurdly off course the story got at times. Because it is insane some of the turns that have been taken that I just didn't think were really important. This though.....I think I said get us back to the war. Get us back to the war.

      Well it's a theory that doesn't service this story. Nothing would change if we didn't have this revelation. So how about you allow some of us to say it's ridiculous and not ask any further question of it, RuneLai? I know this fandom likes to put Yamsicle on a pedestal here but come on. I think it's fair to say he lays it on pretty thick at times when it's really not appropriate. As I said I'm a pretty casual viewer so I have no problem laughing at this guy or even at the larger fandom when they get all defensive over stuff like this. Like long hair Eren, you know how sappy Tumblr gets? XD

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    • Eren sees the past, he just sets off what was already set in stone...….what is the point of him looking back at all then? This Attack Titan has a pretty worthless ability. This stable time loop...….I am calling bullshit on it. Sounds like a self-canceling ability, kind of a redundant ability. I am not convinced we got the full picture here.

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    • I will agree with you on that, at least. The chapter plays up the reveal as if the Attack Titan has the ultimate ace in the hole for having the ability to see the future, but given the fact that the series takes place in a fixed timeline having knowledge of the future does not really matter at all. Normally having visions of the future would allow one to change it based on what he or she saw, but in this case the Attack Titan's users have no control over the events of the future. All they can do is see what will happen, with no option to change it if they do not like it.

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    • Neetaku wrote: I will agree with you on that, at least. The chapter plays up the reveal as if the Attack Titan has the ultimate ace in the hole for having the ability to see the future, but given the fact that the series takes place in a fixed timeline having knowledge of the future does not really matter at all. Normally having visions of the future would allow one to change it based on what he or she saw, but in this case the Attack Titan's users have no control over the events of the future. All they can do is see what will happen, with no option to change it if they do not like it.

      Exactly my point! So I'm not impressed. XP

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    • You're missing the point! It isn't really about the ability to change the future. The fact is, Eren did get a glimpse of the future, but in order to acquire it, he still had to act. He still had to kill innocent civilians, betray friends and allies and take risks, all the time unaware if this was the best way that future is going to be reached.

      Furthermore, we, as readers, are still unaware of what that future is. Only things we know are that it's so 'ghastly' that Grisha, an Eldian Restorationist, seemed to prefer Zeke's Euthanasia over it. However, in what way it is 'ghastly' is uncertain. It's all about that uncertainity, that tension, that desire to know what did Eren see that would make him willing to act the way he has thus far, and when we do see it, if we think it was worth it, and so on. It's only here, at the very end, that all of this is revealed, which just makes the sense of tension and curiosity all the stronger. 

      The past, present and future all affirm one another. Eren, in the future, had to act and intervene in order for Grisha to kill the Reiss family. And all the characters are creations of their past experiences, and what they do now makes this future that they're all unaware off. Free will still matters.

      Fact is, yeah, it's a fixed timeline, with a very certain result about to happen, but in the end, this result can still only be reached with the abilities and effort of all the characters who lived up until now. Like I mentioned with Grisha, that's how the Attack Titan's ability matters. Not only does Grisha act on the memeories of the future, but Eren makes certain events in the past occur the way he wants them to, makes certain characters act the way he wants them to, because of that same ability. The Attack Ttan's ability is one the things that makes this fixed future possible, that allows Eren to be the character that will change things.

      And in the end, it's Eren's glimpse of the future that drives the narattive in these last two arcs, the decisions he made based on his vision that have far reaching consequences. As I said earlier, another thing that matters a lot is the fact it was only revealed to us here at the very end. We either didn't know what Eren was trying to accomplish here or we thought we did, but the basis for his character change was a mystery. Isayama gave seeming hints that made us think of certain reasons or results, again fooling us into thinking we knew why Eren acted in certain ways. That allowed him to catch us off guard with revelations and twists multiple times.And still, now with the knowledge of the Attack Titans, we still don't know everything; what the ultimate goal is, or Grisha's interpretation of 'ghastly'. We know Eren's gonna stop Ymir because it's his wish that will come true, but it amps us up to see how he does it, since stopping her should be impossible, and again, for a wish that we have no knolwedge of.

      There are, in fact, good tales and stories in which the ending is known, but it's the journey to that end that, how it comes to that, that makes them interesting.

      I have never been more anxious for a following AoT chapter than I have been for 122.

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    • I just don't understand why people think this ability is 'useless' just because the future is fixed. In that sense every titan ability is useless, even the founder, because they're all unable to change the fixed future. But they all contribute to making that future happen, which is what everyone seems to miss.

      The fact is that if the Attack Titan didn't have this ability, then the events of the series couldn't have happened the way they did. Just like things would have been different if the Beast Titan couldn't throw rocks really far or if the Colossus Titan couldn't break the walls.

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    • Sorry marco1995mega but like I said it clearly is a superfluous "ability" if what he supposedly set in motion was already unchangeable to begin with. Sorry guys. Isayama here could've left this out and nothing would be lost by it. So save the science fiction for a saga where it actually fits. We're at the final arc. Let's just get on with it.

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:
      Sorry marco1995mega but like I said it clearly is a superfluous "ability" if what he supposedly set in motion was already unchangeable to begin with.

      This is what you aren't understanding. If the Attack Titan didn't have this power to see the future, the future couldn't have been the way it is now. Kruger wouldn't have given Grisha the advice to start a family and protect Armin and Mikasa, Grisha wouldn't have killed the Reiss family, and so forth.

      Just because the future is set in stone doesn't mean the same future would be the case if things were hypothetically different, namely the the hypothetical world where the Attack Titan lacks this ability.

      If hypothetically the Colossus Titan couldn't destroy the walls for example, then of course the 'set in stone' future would be a different one because that was a necessary condition for events to play out the way they did.

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    • I don't buy it TKGriffiths. I just don't buy it. XP So I'm not gonna acknowledge it going forward XD

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    • Attack on Titan Polls posted their Chapter 121 reaction results on Tumblr. I hadn't realized how many people voted. They got over 1800 votes and some of the results are interesting.

      https://snkpolls.tumblr.com/post/187869457492/snk-chapter-121-results

      Some of the questions surprised me (like I didn't think the Attack Titan's ability was a twist since we'd known since Kruger that it was possible to see into the future), but others are interesting. Most readers are still in Eren's court, whatever he's doing.

      If you're curious about what other readers thought, it's worth a look. And at 1800 it's a pretty good poll size.

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    • RuneLai wrote: Attack on Titan Polls posted their Chapter 121 reaction results on Tumblr. I hadn't realized how many people voted. They got over 1800 votes and some of the results are interesting.

      https://snkpolls.tumblr.com/post/187869457492/snk-chapter-121-results

      Some of the questions surprised me (like I didn't think the Attack Titan's ability was a twist since we'd known since Kruger that it was possible to see into the future), but others are interesting. Most readers are still in Eren's court, whatever he's doing.

      If you're curious about what other readers thought, it's worth a look. And at 1800 it's a pretty good poll size.

      Eh those polls are so predictable. XP

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    • I guess we also know why Eren refused to let any of his friends inherit his Titan, because if that happened it would not be consistent with his plan for the future, the plan he already knew was going to be fulfilled his way and them inheriting it would only interfere with his plan. But if that's the case, I still do not buy that he didn't see anything about what harm his plan was gonna bring to his friends. Whether he could've changed their fates or not. But it also shows how much he's screwed up by not telling anyone about what he saw in his visions. A costly mistake. Are their deaths just another cog in his plans? Especially if that theory about not dodging Gabi's shot holds water? Because we all know what happened in order for her to get to that point where she blew his head off and bam, landed him in the palm of Zeke's hand.

      This time loop is so badly ill-advised in its application to this story due to the aforementioned questions and so many more it raises.

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    • RuneLai wrote:

      Some of the questions surprised me (like I didn't think the Attack Titan's ability was a twist since we'd known since Kruger that it was possible to see into the future)

      The thing with this is, I initially thought he was playing with the idea of the second hand (and even third hand since Kruger was in them as well) memories Eren was experiencing being fallible. And them easily being confused. Like I thought Eren was seeing the memory differently to how it actually happened, and letting his own experiences (Mikasa and Armin) blur into the memory somehow.

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:
      I guess we also know why Eren refused to let any of his friends inherit his Titan, because if that happened it would not be consistent with his plan for the future, the plan he already knew was going to be fulfilled his way and them inheriting it would only interfere with his plan. But if that's the case, I still do not buy that he didn't see anything about what harm his plan was gonna bring to his friends. Whether he could've changed their fates or not. But it also shows how much he's screwed up by not telling anyone about what he saw in his visions. A costly mistake. Are their deaths just another cog in his plans? Especially if that theory about not dodging Gabi's shot holds water? Because we all know what happened in order for her to get to that point where she blew his head off and bam, landed him in the palm of Zeke's hand.

      This time loop is so badly ill-advised in its application to this story due to the aforementioned questions and so many more it raises.

      Eren can't see the whole future. And even if he did see something specific he might want to stop (like Sasha's death) and try to prevent it, his actions would only contribute to making the future happen exactly as he saw it. That's the nature of a fixed time loop.

      Thinking about from another angle, he can't possibly see something that doesn't end up happening because in that case he wouldn't have seen it in the first place due it not actually happening in the future, which is all he can see.

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    • TKGriffiths wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:
      I guess we also know why Eren refused to let any of his friends inherit his Titan, because if that happened it would not be consistent with his plan for the future, the plan he already knew was going to be fulfilled his way and them inheriting it would only interfere with his plan. But if that's the case, I still do not buy that he didn't see anything about what harm his plan was gonna bring to his friends. Whether he could've changed their fates or not. But it also shows how much he's screwed up by not telling anyone about what he saw in his visions. A costly mistake. Are their deaths just another cog in his plans? Especially if that theory about not dodging Gabi's shot holds water? Because we all know what happened in order for her to get to that point where she blew his head off and bam, landed him in the palm of Zeke's hand.

      This time loop is so badly ill-advised in its application to this story due to the aforementioned questions and so many more it raises.

      Eren can't see the whole future. And even if he did see something specific he might want to stop (like Sasha's death) and try to prevent it, his actions would only contribute to making the future happen exactly as he saw it. That's the nature of a fixed time loop.

      Thinking about from another angle, he can't possibly see something that doesn't end up happening because in that case he wouldn't have seen it in the first place due it not actually happening in the future, which is all he can see.

      This shit makes my head hurt. XP I'm still calling bull on this entire fixed time loop theory. There's literally zero point to him having that kind of insight then. If Eren sees the future and everything is falling into place, then there is no struggle. No tension remaining to what he is doing. Maybe to his few surviving friends but not to anything he's doing if he's already convinced his desired result is gonna be what's realized. Whatever it is. No, something has to interfere with his plan or pull the rug out from under him. I assume under this time loop bullshit, maybe Ymir Fritz walking towards the Coordinate was also an anticipated step in this master plan?

      This undermines a lot more than it actually advances. Someone remind Yamschmuck that he is not a scientist.

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    • sunWarriorAsahi is right. Why is the Attack Titan's ability so far unnecessary? Because it does not contribute anything to the plot, if this revelation had not been given, the regicide of the Reiss would have remained the same, without changes, the time travel was not necessary. Then, the following question arises, why introduce this plot resource? It seems to suggest that it is because it is useful for the end of the story, a simple, easy and uncreative resource. This of the causal loop has no consistency with the rest of the plot of the series.

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    • Ye but he still has to actually ACT in order to get the future to happen. He won't just sit in a deckchair. Because he has aspirations and motivations just like everyone else, and the actions he does because of those motivations are what makes the future the way it is.

      Like the whole reason the future he saw is going to happen, is because Eren (and everyone else in the world) has the motivation to MAKE it happen. Ye you can say 'well why doesn't go play video games all day or shoot himself in the head, THAT'll change the future'. The reason is because he has no REASON to do that, he doesn't WANT to do that, and thus that's not what he does.

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    • As TKG already said, Eren only saw glimpses of the future. He probably did not know Sasha would die, for example. While the final result might have been set in stone (though only Eren and Grisha knew that, and not for long), the details of how it is reached were unknown to Eren. Plus, it still depends on the actions of the characters, especially Eren, and their abilities. If the Attack Titan did not have future sight, it's more than likely that the final result would be very different. All of that combined means that Eren still needed to struggle, not just physically, but emotionally and morally. While the broad idea of how to achieve it was fairly certain (Eren and Zeke coming together), the details were not known. That's why Eren objected to the whole Historia becoming a broodmare idea, it's why his resolve faltered at the idea of killing innocents in Liberio, and why he cried when Sasha died. He could still control all these relatively minor details to the best of his abilities, make as few sacrifices as possible, while having to make sure to not stray off the path that leads to the future he saw, and dealing with the immense pressure that comes with it all.

      Can you imagine it? Being the only one to know this future, which seems failry bright from his perspective, but also knowng it was only possible through firm actions and choices. That HOW it is reached was still a rather flexible affair with many possibilities, and it was up to him to minimize the damage and sacrifices, that the fate of many, MANY people was in his hands, all the while making sure that it all leads to that worthwhile future. That is a pressure of nigh-inconcievable proportions.

      Knowingthe future result only made things harder for Eren. While it told him that the overall result was good (in his opinion), reaching still required action and minor results (delaying Marley, obtaining Zeke, etc.), which could never be achieved without dirtying his hands. Anytime he had to make a hard decision, he struggled, wondering if the future he saw was worth it. There was probably a part of him that believed that not acting would change that future, and that a different result was possible, before realizing it's the only road ahead. And even then, that future that he saw and thinks is worth all the sacrifice is only possible because he was able to see it in the first place and could make pragmatic decisions based on that vision; in other words, no Attack Titan power, no future that Eren saw.

      If you want me to give you the best example of why it's not necessarily a bad plot device (at least in terms of influencing the past), it would be Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. It shows that the good results at the end were only possible because Hermione had a time-turner. If that item had not existed, or at least been in Hermione's possesion, Buckbeak would be dead, so would Harry and Sirius. The Attack Titan functions in a similar manner... ONLY they cannot physically interact with the world in the past but only Grisha's conciousness and influence his actions by giving him memories of the future, meaning that everything Eren is achieving with the AT's power, a good chunk of it he's achieving indirectly through the actions of others, without the more surefire way of doing it with his own hands. He is more limited than Harry and Hermione were.

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    • TKGriffiths wrote: Ye but he still has to actually ACT in order to get the future to happen. He won't just sit in a deckchair. Because he has aspirations and motivations just like everyone else, and the actions he does because of those motivations are what makes the future the way it is.

      Like the whole reason the future he saw is going to happen, is because Eren (and everyone else in the world) has the motivation to MAKE it happen. Ye you can say 'well why doesn't go play video games all day or shoot himself in the head, THAT'll change the future'. The reason is because he has no REASON to do that, he doesn't WANT to do that, and thus that's not what he does.

      Listen. If he can't influence the timeline at all, then having him see the future is utter nonsense. It renders this alleged ability moot.

      I'm sorry. It's an idiotic idea, it serves no purpose, it raises like a thousand questions about what we've seen and what's yet to come and as far as I'm concerned, if Eren's desired outcome is one he already knows is written and set in stone no matter what he does...….Then there's zero tension. Because presumably he's already anticipated most if not all possible interferences and twisted them to service his scam.

      I've been following along since the first arc, the story has always been intriguing, usually the twists are quite compelling. I think Titan gets pretty heavyhanded at times, maybe too much for its own good and I wonder all the time why we detour to things that just don't seem all that important, and the serial escalation just gets nuts because of that reason, the way this guy is always trying to outdo himself. I humor myself in some of the absurdity of it XD That's part of the fun of trailing along. But this is especially frustrating due to how much it throws into question. Of all the twists out there to spring.

      Yeah but with Harry and Hermione that ability actually mattered. It made a difference. This does not.

      Again this is really making my head hurt. Tell Yams to please condense all that crap and forward it in a 400 word transcript for us next time, because seriously, this is some of the worst filler I've ever encountered. XP

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    • Marco1995mega wrote: As TKG already said, Eren only saw glimpses of the future. He probably did not know Sasha would die, for example. While the final result might have been set in stone (though only Eren and Grisha knew that, and not for long), the details of how it is reached were unknown to Eren. Plus, it still depends on the actions of the characters, especially Eren, and their abilities. If the Attack Titan did not have future sight, it's more than likely that the final result would be very different. All of that combined means that Eren still needed to struggle, not just physically, but emotionally and morally. While the broad idea of how to achieve it was fairly certain (Eren and Zeke coming together), the details were not known. That's why Eren objected to the whole Historia becoming a broodmare idea, it's why his resolve faltered at the idea of killing innocents in Liberio, and why he cried when Sasha died. He could still control all these relatively minor details to the best of his abilities, make as few sacrifices as possible, while having to make sure to not stray off the path that leads to the future he saw, and dealing with the immense pressure that comes with it all.

      Can you imagine it? Being the only one to know this future, which seems failry bright from his perspective, but also knowng it was only possible through firm actions and choices. That HOW it is reached was still a rather flexible affair with many possibilities, and it was up to him to minimize the damage and sacrifices, that the fate of many, MANY people was in his hands, all the while making sure that it all leads to that worthwhile future. That is a pressure of nigh-inconcievable proportions.

      Knowingthe future result only made things harder for Eren. While it told him that the overall result was good (in his opinion), reaching still required action and minor results (delaying Marley, obtaining Zeke, etc.), which could never be achieved without dirtying his hands. Anytime he had to make a hard decision, he struggled, wondering if the future he saw was worth it. There was probably a part of him that believed that not acting would change that future, and that a different result was possible, before realizing it's the only road ahead. And even then, that future that he saw and thinks is worth all the sacrifice is only possible because he was able to see it in the first place and could make pragmatic decisions based on that vision; in other words, no Attack Titan power, no future that Eren saw.

      If you want me to give you the best example of why it's not necessarily a bad plot device (at least in terms of influencing the past), it would be Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. It shows that the good results at the end were only possible because Hermione had a time-turner. If that item had not existed, or at least been in Hermione's possesion, Buckbeak would be dead, so would Harry and Sirius. The Attack Titan functions in a similar manner... ONLY they cannot physically interact with the world in the past but only Grisha's conciousness and influence his actions by giving him memories of the future, meaning that everything Eren is achieving with the AT's power, a good chunk of it he's achieving indirectly through the actions of others, without the more surefire way of doing it with his own hands. He is more limited than Harry and Hermione were.

      I am seriously doing my best to make sense of your explanation man, trying to make sense of all this time loop mumbo jumbo, but it's really a struggle. Sorry, I am really trying. XP But I don't think even Yams should be crazy enough to think that going by 121 alone would satisfy all the questions this raises. I sure hope that wasn't his expectation, SMH DX

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    • And yeah, if Eren really was out of the loop on so many of those 'minor details' and could still influence them to minimize the damage, then boy does he suck at it XD Murdering civvies and endangering his friends....And I still am suspicious of his intentions in keeping them locked up in Shiganshina now. If he knows the end result, he should know how things panned out for at least some of those guys or how their roles played out/ended in servicing his little plot. Again, the implication has been that he did not dodge Gabi's shot because he knew that would still allow him to get to the Paths via Zeke. He could be using his friends' unnecessary sacrifices to further himself along after that part of the plan was satisfied. Dude doesn't even spare the family of the friend he supposedly felt close enough to to cry over when she got killed. Those two barely had a relationship onscreen worth acknowledging BTW, LOL. Does their presence in town service his plot too?

      We've seen time travel stories done well, but this guy should seriously just get on with this, this is just a detour that doesn't serve a purpose. "Oh I know the future, but I can't change it or the way we get to it". Rubbish. XP

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    • SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      1) Listen. If he can't influence the timeline at all, then having him see the future is utter nonsense. It renders this alleged ability moot.

      2) If Eren's desired outcome is one he already knows is written and set in stone no matter what he does...….Then there's zero tension.

      3) Yeah but with Harry and Hermione that ability actually mattered. It made a difference. This does not.

      1) You're just sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating the same mantra at this point. We've already explained to you how this ability matters in making the future the way it is, you just don't want to listen.

      2) It's set in stone BECAUSE of what Eren does. If he did something else, the future wouldn't be the way he saw it, but since he doesn't do something else (since he has no MOTIVATION to do anything else), then the future WILL be the way he saw it. The fact that the future he saw is the way it is BECAUSE he was able to see it in advance and act on that information seems to just go over your head.

      3) The Prisoner of Azkaban situation is exactly the same, you only think it's different because you haven't understood it. At no point did Buckbeak actually die, he was saved in the 'original timeline' by future Harry + Hermionie but nobody could see that's what happened because they did it covertly. The same when Harry saved his past self from the dementors, there was never some alternate timeline where nobody saved him and the dementors killed Harry. It always happened that way, because it was set in stone that he'd survive and come back to save himself.

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    • TKGriffiths wrote:

      SunWarriorAsahi wrote:

      1) Listen. If he can't influence the timeline at all, then having him see the future is utter nonsense. It renders this alleged ability moot.

      2) If Eren's desired outcome is one he already knows is written and set in stone no matter what he does...….Then there's zero tension.

      3) Yeah but with Harry and Hermione that ability actually mattered. It made a difference. This does not.

      1) You're just sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating the same mantra at this point. We've already explained to you how this ability matters in making the future the way it is, you just don't want to listen.

      2) It's set in stone BECAUSE of what Eren does. If he did something else, the future wouldn't be the way he saw it, but since he doesn't do something else (since he has no MOTIVATION to do anything else), then the future WILL be the way he saw it. The fact that the future he saw is the way it is BECAUSE he was able to see it in advance and act on that information seems to just go over your head.

      3) The Prisoner of Azkaban situation is exactly the same, you only think it's different because you haven't understood it. At no point did Buckbeak actually die, he was saved in the 'original timeline' by future Harry + Hermionie but nobody could see that's what happened because they did it covertly. The same when Harry saved his past self from the dementors, there was never some alternate timeline where nobody saved him and the dementors killed Harry. It always happened that way, because it was set in stone that he'd survive and come back to save himself.

      I listened. And I don't buy it. Nor do I see its relevance. Again, there's zero point to this ability if it hasn't the ability to change or influence time in any meaningful way, even Eren has no control over whatever it does or whenever he does, quite obviously.

      Whatever the explanation, this is an unnecessary development that doesn't add anything to the story. But it is good cause to secondguess Eren on a lot of things. Literally nothing would be different without this revelation. You do see the questions it is raising among a lot of people. Sorry TKGriffiths, I'm done trying to justify this. XP

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    • TKGriffiths wrote: Ye but he still has to actually ACT in order to get the future to happen. He won't just sit in a deckchair. Because he has aspirations and motivations just like everyone else, and the actions he does because of those motivations are what makes the future the way it is.

      Like the whole reason the future he saw is going to happen, is because Eren (and everyone else in the world) has the motivation to MAKE it happen. Ye you can say 'well why doesn't go play video games all day or shoot himself in the head, THAT'll change the future'. The reason is because he has no REASON to do that, he doesn't WANT to do that, and thus that's not what he does.

      Well, if the timeline of AOT really is operating on a fixed timeline, then Eren theoretically could just stop now and the Rumbling would still happen. The fact that he has seen the Rumbling happen in the future means that, if everything is fixed in the timeline and can't be changed, there's literally nothing anyone can do to stop the Rumbling from happening. Whatever is done from here on out will be what always needed to happen for the Rumbling to start.

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    • Neetaku wrote:

      Well, if the timeline of AOT really is operating on a fixed timeline, then Eren theoretically could just stop now and the Rumbling would still happen. The fact that he has seen the Rumbling happen in the future means that, if everything is fixed in the timeline and can't be changed, there's literally nothing anyone can do to stop the Rumbling from happening. Whatever is done from here on out will be what always needed to happen for the Rumbling to start.

      If he 'stopped', whatever that means, then the rumbling in the future he saw in the first place involved him 'stopping' all along. That's the definition of seeing the future. If he saw something that didn't end up happening, then what he saw WASN'T the future by definition. And since he can ONLY see the future, (not hypothetical could-have-been situations that aren't the future), then by definition that can't happen.

      Another way to explain it: If Eren had the motivations to choose to 'stop', then the future that results from him 'stopping' is the one he would have seen in the first place. But he DOESN'T have the motivation to 'stop'.

      Such suggestions about 'well if he does X then the future would be different to the one he saw' are nonsense because if he thought doing X was a good idea, he WOULD have done it and the future he saw in the first place would have been the one resulting from him doing X.

      IDK how to explain this idea any more clearly. People seem to think of 'the future' as some kind disconnected event (like a movie) when in reality it's something created by the all the choices people have already made in the past.

      I think why people aren't getting this is because they're overexposed to the 'alternate timeline' version of time travel that they've seen in stuff like Back to the Future and Avengers Endgame. There are no alternate timelines in Attack on Titan.

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    • Again, literally no point. It changes squat. So why are we even having this discussion and why did Yamsicle throw it in? If changing the path to Eren's ultimate plan is not possible.....then it's a self-negating plot point. Einstein be damned. XP

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    • Neetaku wrote:

      Well, if the timeline of AOT really is operating on a fixed timeline, then Eren theoretically could just stop now and the Rumbling would still happen. The fact that he has seen the Rumbling happen in the future means that, if everything is fixed in the timeline and can't be changed, there's literally nothing anyone can do to stop the Rumbling from happening. Whatever is done from here on out will be what always needed to happen for the Rumbling to start.

      That's pretty much what I figure. But we don't know everything. Heck, Eren does not know everything either. And Grisha, when he asked Zeke to stop Eren, may not have been aware to what degree the timeline is fixed. (Though I find it interesting that despite wanting Eren to be stopped, he still gives both the Attack Titan and the Founding Titan to 12-year-old Eren, indicating an acceptance that some of these things have to happen otherwise adult Eren could never give him visions of the future in the first place.)

      In other fixed timeline stories, where characters are actively trying to prevent a future (as opposed to Eren's ensuring a future), usually their efforts to change the future ends up leading to it, possibly in an indirect manner. Eren could sit on his ass and the future he's foreseen will happen, but there are probably other things he wants to do that require him to act.

      We haven't seen Eren's full vision of what's going to happen, but we do know he's missing some details. If, perhaps, those missing details include the survival of his friends, he's more likely to approach the future in a way his friends will survive. Anything he doesn't know is not set in stone from his perspective, so why not try for the best outcome?

      And even if he does the Rumbling we don't know how he's going to use it. It probably won't (for dramatic purposes) be a "hey, let's get some Titans moving as a show of force," but it's possible he could do that without actually having them go out and destroy nations. Heck, maybe he uses them specifically to drive away Marley and then the Titans come back home so that all the fighting stops and both sides can come to the negotiation table like civilized people. If he can control them, there's no reason he needs to make them go homicidal maniac on the rest of the world just because he woke them up.

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    • Yeah. Except this is the guy who massacred a bunch of civilians knowing full well what kind of response that would reap, knowingly triggering Willy's trap, sooooooo…………

      Your hero, everyone??? DX XP

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    • RuneLai wrote:

      Neetaku wrote:

      Well, if the timeline of AOT really is operating on a fixed timeline, then Eren theoretically could just stop now and the Rumbling would still happen. The fact that he has seen the Rumbling happen in the future means that, if everything is fixed in the timeline and can't be changed, there's literally nothing anyone can do to stop the Rumbling from happening. Whatever is done from here on out will be what always needed to happen for the Rumbling to start.

      That's pretty much what I figure. But we don't know everything. Heck, Eren does not know everything either. And Grisha, when he asked Zeke to stop Eren, may not have been aware to what degree the timeline is fixed. (Though I find it interesting that despite wanting Eren to be stopped, he still gives both the Attack Titan and the Founding Titan to 12-year-old Eren, indicating an acceptance that some of these things have to happen otherwise adult Eren could never give him visions of the future in the first place.)

      In other fixed timeline stories, where characters are actively trying to prevent a future (as opposed to Eren's ensuring a future), usually their efforts to change the future ends up leading to it, possibly in an indirect manner. Eren could sit on his ass and the future he's foreseen will happen, but there are probably other things he wants to do that require him to act.

      We haven't seen Eren's full vision of what's going to happen, but we do know he's missing some details. If, perhaps, those missing details include the survival of his friends, he's more likely to approach the future in a way his friends will survive. Anything he doesn't know is not set in stone from his perspective, so why not try for the best outcome?

      And even if he does the Rumbling we don't know how he's going to use it. It probably won't (for dramatic purposes) be a "hey, let's get some Titans moving as a show of force," but it's possible he could do that without actually having them go out and destroy nations. Heck, maybe he uses them specifically to drive away Marley and then the Titans come back home so that all the fighting stops and both sides can come to the negotiation table like civilized people. If he can control them, there's no reason he needs to make them go homicidal maniac on the rest of the world just because he woke them up.

      There are definitely other things he needs to do in order to bring about the Rumbling, so he won't just sit around and wait for it. My point is only that he theoretically could do nothing, as the Rumbling is destined to happen regardless of (or I guess technically because of) whatever actions he himself takes.

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    • Ugggh. Way to foul up the air by introducing a plot point that doesn't add anything and yet needs six different interpretations to somehow make up for that. XP XP XP Would've been easier to just set the Coordinate in motion in 120, feels like an entire chapter went towards telling us "You can see the future, you can influence the future, except you can't change the future, the future chooses for you, not vice versa". Or some crap like that. I have no clue.

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    • Neetaku wrote:

      There are definitely other things he needs to do in order to bring about the Rumbling, so he won't just sit around and wait for it. My point is only that he theoretically could do nothing, as the Rumbling is destined to happen regardless of (or I guess technically because of) whatever actions he himself takes.

      There is no 'theoretically' because doing nothing is something Eren never had any motivation to do. The rumbling is only 'destined' to happen because Eren (and everyone else) already chose the actions that cause it to happen. If he was inclined to choose another action, then the rumbling would not be involved in the future he saw in the first place.

      This is the blind spot you seem to have. If 'theoretically' Eren was inclined to perform actions that don't lead to the rumbling, then a 'no rumbling' future is the one he would see in the first place.

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    • Like when Zeke used the Beast Titan to kill Erwin, he was not using his 'throwing rocks' ability to change the future from one where Erwin survived to one where Erwin died. Erwin was always dead in the future. In this sense nobody can change the future, but I don't understand why you think this makes the attack titan's foresight 'useless'. It's equally 'useless' to every other ability, but all those abilities still contributed to making the future the way it is.

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    • Then don't introduce this insight into the future/past/alternate dimensions as a plot point. Easy. XP

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    • Chapter 106: Armin asks himself "I wonder if somehow things could've have been different", or something to that effect, referring to you-know-who's demise, and Eren's hand in it.

      Believe me Armin after this chapter, a lot of us are wondering the same thing. XP Or we should be anyway. That line and others like it, in light of Chapter 121, suddenly begs a lot more questions in light of this so-called time loop ability.

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    • I’m starting to think that Erens knowing of himself succeeding is going to be his downfall, kinda like death note and Light

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    • Whalordius TDD wrote: I’m starting to think that Erens knowing of himself succeeding is going to be his downfall, kinda like death note and Light

      Or maybe Lelouche from Code Geass.

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    • But everything is predetermined for Eren no? What y'all so worried about? XD He seems pretty content with his future-tripping mambo so far when talking to Zeke lol

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    • Ok what nobody here is mentioning, Eren has to send the message to Kruger to protect Mikasa & Armin. I also originally believed that was blurred memory when I 1st read it, & only came to realize it was the actual past when seeing it adapted in the anime. Now that it's confirmed that Eren is supposed to send that message & has already seen that through his father's memories (unless that was when he told Kruger) he still has yet to send that message right?

      I get the feeling that Eren will at some point regret his actions & send messages from the future to Eren Kruger & Grisha Yeager. It's possible that Grisha with the Attack Titan's power knew that giving Eren his Titan Powers was the only way to save Armin or Mikasa with both being necessary to stop Eren from destroying the world with millions of Colossal Titans. This would fit into the Locked Timeline that has been put in place.

      Yeah it really sucks that Sasha died, although we have to remember that this entire chapter was a jumbled up mess that needs explaining in a later chapter or the anime. We don't know how much information Eren sent to his past self or what he told himself. Then we also apparently have the message sent to the beginning. We also need to know more about what Grisha was shown to make him support Zeke.

      I had always assumed the reason Eren has yet to pass on his Titan is that he still has a few years before the curse of Ymir would take effect. Eren has only had his powers for 10 years, while Zeke has had his for about 12 years & Reiner is probably on his 11th year. The 13th year is when the Curse of Ymir takes effect resulting in the Titan Shifter's death.

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    • A mess is right. I was laughing my ass off at how much some tried to defend this time loop garbage XD Yams just needs to learn when the right time to quit is. Bit of an ego going on there.

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    • Remember when everyone thought the Attack Titan's power would play a huge role in combat? I remember thinking the time travel in Avengers EndGame was confusing then Attack on Titan says hold my Whiskey with this chapter. It's hilarious that there are actually people who complain about Sonic 06 Time Travel making the story convoluted, when it was simple & easy to follow compared to what Avengers Endgame did.

      If Isayama ends the series without explaining this stuff, I'm going to say that the plot for Season 4 was poorly written. He may have very well dug a grave for the series reputation with this chapter, we can only wait to find out. I get the feeling that Annie may be free from the Titan Crystal now thanks to what happens at the end of the next chapter. I get the feeling the Wall Titans will take priority as the new enemy that poses a threat to everyone & that both Mikasa & Armin will be needed to make Eren see reason & stop them.

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    • Oh Isayama drove off the cliff a long time ago. It ain't the days of the Trost and Female Titan arcs anymore. All this carp about Ymir Fritz, royal blood, TIME LOOPS, Gabi Braun......just blow up the earth's core Eren. XD 121 is a phenomenally low point for this series. I say that as so some who has followed since the early days of the manga. It's crazy where in the left field we are.

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    • Never forget Sasha! I was ok with the Royal Bloodline thing as it was a huge part of the 4th Major StoryArc. I consider Shiganshina the Prologue & the Training Corp days as part of Trost. Nobody really likes Gabi except for Isayama, which is why I'm hoping Funimation does the right thing & gives her Dragon Ball GT Pan's VA. I know that Isayama screws over a lot of characters for no reason, like Sasha & Pixis over the past 2 Years dispite their popularity.

      I don't think Levi's dead yet, although he probably should die so that he can be with all of his comrades who got killed off already including the girl who was going to be his wife, Petra. Return to Shiganshina was the last truly high point for Attack on Titan. The anime butchered the War Within the Walls Arc (Season 3A) by rushing through it so much. The anime wasn't exactly perfect with Season 3B either with a couple scenes getting glossed over like The Armored Titan getting back up. I agree the idea that Eren sent himself a message back to the 4th Story Arc: War Within the Walls was absurd.

      I see Grisha killing all the Reiss family a lot more sympathetically now at least with this chapter. Keep in mind that only Frieda really needed to die to accomplish the mission, everyone else was all Eren proving that he seems to be turning into a villain at least temporarily. This November we'll probably see how Eren no longer cares about who he's killing as he starts to regenerate. Grisha hinted that Eren needed to be stopped in this chapter at least.

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    • WaterKirby1994 wrote:
      Ok what nobody here is mentioning, Eren has to send the message to Kruger to protect Mikasa & Armin.

      I don't think Eren has to send anything. The Attack Titan's power isn't to send things to the past, it's to see the future. Kruger can do this without Eren doing anything. He could have seen any of the scenes in the series (through Eren's eyes) where Mikasa/Armin played important roles. And then told Grisha to befriend and protect them to ensure that they in turn befriend Eren and make the future happen the way it is.

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    • A FANDOM user
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