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  • Manuel de la Fuente
    Manuel de la Fuente closed this thread because:
    Conversation deviated to uncivil arguments.
    22:45, January 26, 2020

    Sources: Timeless Voids StandardsSpeed Scaling

    According to Vs Battles Wiki, if a void is explicitly stated that it is timeless, and/or is proven to be, then it is considered a "true void," and is therefore scaled to at least infinite speed.

    Both of these apply to the paths realm. In chapters 120 and 122, it shows that no time has passed outside of the events of the paths realm, and in chapter 120, Zeke Yeager explicitly states that everything that occurs here "happens in the blink of an eye," which is figurative language for no time passing, given what is shown.

    So Eren is able to move while time is stopped via the titan realm. But how is he immeasurable? Immeasurable speed is when you can move back and forth freely through time. Eren has demonstrated this ability when reviewing his father's "memories," which Eren revealed to actually be tangible points in history by talking to Grisha, and allowing for Grisha to see Zeke and for Zeke to touch Grisha. 

    With it now being established that Eren has immeasurable speed, why then does he not peacefully go back in time and manipulate the first humans, Adam and Eve, to give birth to different humans that before? Yes its a paradox that would end in Eren's demise, but wouldn't it be for the greater good that he sacrifice himself for his people in order for there to be no more oppression?

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    • Before someone asks, since I have access to future memories, somebody will say this:

      "But you need royal blood to access the paths! Eren would need someone at his side if he wanted to use it whenever he wanted, right?"

      Well, that used to be the case. But royal blood only means that Ymir puts you at top priority in a conflict between two eldians. When Eren suggested her freedom, it broke this power. She now put Eren at top priority out of her own free will, despite Eren not being royal blooded. He now has no need for someone of royal blood to use his powers to it's full capabilities.

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    • Razzylada
      Razzylada removed this reply because:
      01:11, December 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Razzylada wrote: "he didn't have a physical contact with him. He was seeing from Eren's eyes, and saw Zeke, and tried to interact with him. As he saw Zeke, he tryed to hug him. He eventually might have had the feeling of touching him because he was on Eren's POV, hard to say."

      That's a major stretch. First off, there has been nothing suggesting that the founding/attack titan gets continuous memories without royal intervention, Remember that Kruger touched Dina before listing off Mikasa, Armin and Eren's existence. Secondly, if Grisha didn't contact Zeke, he would have gone through him, just like Ymir did with Eren. Also, sight doesn't register as touch. 

      Razzylada wrote: "The chapter isn't named Memories from the future for nothing."

      With that logic, you would also be conceding the point that what happens in the paths realm doesn't happen instantly, as chapter 120 is named Instant, but we'll get to that later. Also, it has been ackgnowleged by Zeke's observation in chapter 121 that Eren can potentially change history through memories alone simply by making himself exist in that point in time. 

      Razzylada wrote: "time still exists in the Path realm. It's just extremely long. If ten "years" has passed within the Paths realm, well maybe only one hour has passed in the physical world. However, as they don't stay that long in the Path realm (just a few hours), from the physical world POV, it has been something like one second. Time in the physical world is not stopped when someone is visiting the Paths realm."

      I can debunk that right now.



      TimelessEren1

      Before the paths realm

      These first two images came before the time in the titan realm.

      As you can see, Eren's head has a lot of forward momentum from having it blasted off of his body.

      TimelessEren2

      Here you can see Zeke about to touch Eren's head. You can see that his hand has not fully grasped it. We are to believe they are transported as soon as they actually touch. Keep in mind, Zeke said it took years for him to wait until Eren came to, and take note that his hair is standing up the opposite way of his head's momentum.

      TimelessEren3

      And here is the third picture, the real world immeadiately after the events inside the paths realm. You can observe that Eren's hair is still standing up after the supposed years that passed in the PR. 


      If it had actually taken even a full second, let alone an HOUR for all of this to occur, then you would be right in the sense that Eren isn't infinitely fast, let alone immeasurably. However, if that were the case, it would also be impossible for Eren's hair to stay afloat after a full second. If it took an hour in the real world, Eren and Zeke would be DEAD, as Eren's head would lose conciousness, Zeke would die from blood loss from his back, among other outside reasons(such as being vulnerable to outside attacks).

      I'm just going to take that as ignorance on your end, and not an intentional omission of information.

      In conclusion, there's too many statements, implications and feats supporting there being no time passed outside the PR to disregard the possibility of infinite speed.

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    • Razzylada
      Razzylada removed this reply because:
      01:11, December 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Razzylada wrote: "We could campare this to the fixed timeline, where whatever action you make in the past doesn't change anything because it has always happened, it's you that made it happen by going to the past (Harry Potter 3 is a famous example)."

      You're making the assumption that the two different franchises have the same universal laws. That would be like saying the Avengers didn't really time travel because it didn't affect the present, Back to the Future a famous example

      Razzylada wrote: "that's just an observation. It's the interpretation of Zeke."

      A logical observation of what happened in front of you is the highest honor to the truth, especially coming from Zeke. 

      Transcendent






















      "If the Attack Titan truly does have the power to TRANSCEND TIME, you should also have the ability to affect the past by showing Grisha only the memories that would serve you best"

      That's an explicit statement that Eren's titan itself transcends time. It would be illogical if it couldn't be able to affect the past and is only bound to the present, otherwise it would be a completely redundant statement. 

      Also the fact that Grisha HANGS his arm around Zeke's shoulder should be enough evidence that these aren't just memories, or that the PR isn't actually a physical place. There's more evidence in the newest chapter, but I'm not allowed to say specifically what it is, but just pay extra attention to details when you read it.

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    • Razzylada wrote: "we only ended up with Eren interacting with Grisha because Grisha received the memories of Eren from the moment he's visiting Grisha's memories."

      Again, you're making the wrong assumption that you constantly recieve future memories. You needed royal blood every time you wanted to use this power. Grisha never got in touch with one after getting his powers, only Eren did. 

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    • Razzylada
      Razzylada removed this reply because:
      01:10, December 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Razzylada wrote: "From Zeke POV, he saw Eren talking to Grisha, and Grisha acted based on this. But he doesn't know Grisha received memories of Eren and was "seeing from Eren POV", that he heard what Eren said because he received his memories."

      As I've pointed out before, ATs haven't been shown to give users passive memories without royal blood. He did not and could not have touched Dina after recieving his powers. Even if he could, Dina is a mindless titan. Eren had to touch a concious human in order to recieve memories, as a mindless titan can't control ymir with any commands. 

      Razzylada wrote: "With the difference that HP used time travel, SnK didn't."

      Still nothing to show that what Eren & Zeke did was't literally time travel. Even the source you add at the bottom thinks it's time travel; Their arguments can't be used here because it depends on time travel being used.

      Razzylada wrote: "I won't talk about Avengers because I hate superheroes and I never watched these."

      ...Okay? 

      Razzylada wrote: "Let's remember that Eren received numerous loooooong memories from his father. And he wasn't able to use the Founding Titan that time, and he wasn't touching a royal blood person."

      Those "memories" you speak of were him reciting the book Grisha had in his basement. Also, Historia was able to transfer memories through inanimate objects, so the next plausible thing would be that he got memories from Dina's DNA on the photo/book.

      Razzylada wrote: "Where did I say that Paths Realm was a physical place? Nowhere. And I'm perfectly aware that this isn't a physical place."

      Typo on my end. I meant to say, "the PR is actually a physical place." as in it proves that the Paths realm is entirely physical.

      Razzylada wrote: "it's only Eren and Zeke's souls (or astral bodies?) that are in the Path realm. Not their physical bodies, which are still in Shiganshina. I understand that two souls can touch each other, but a physical body (Grisha) and a soul?"

      Where has this ever been established that A. souls exist, and B. their paths bodies aren't physical? Which B is contradicted by the fact that a non-paths body touched one from the PR.

      Razzylada wrote: "And.. EVEN IF all of that weren't just memories but was also time travel... That doesn't change at all the fixed timeline stuff. That's fixed, whatever Eren does, that just make stuff that has already happened happen. Like the Reiss massacre." https://external-preview.redd.it/_yMyuRmwMWmcFaOsxJEUt7RtOfgtEkMSRu2VOtFEnN8.jpg?auto=webp&s=489ba9d4f46a7c28767fd9f49f1123344fdb90e4

      Thank you for giving me the source for your "fixed timeline" theory. I would have much rather heard your own opinions though, as I'm not in a position to easily click reddit links.

      It's an interesting theory, but it lacks two things. 1.) it assumes that Eren Kruger recieves passive memories from other titan users, despite the fact that he had touched Dina in chapter 87, and 2) it ignores the possibility that Eren knew exactly where and when to interact with the past in a manner that does not change the future, causing the butterfly effect. This can be seen in "A Sound of Thunder," where it depicts a universe where time travel via machine exists, but they follow a direct path and instruction to avoid changing the path. Under these circumstances, they are operating in a fixed timeline, however, one person makes the mistake of walking off the indicated path, stepping on a butterfly. This impacts the timeline as it changes the election results. 

      Also, the fact Eren can see time simultaneously via the PR, he should be able to make an infinite amount of revisions in his actions to achieve the best result.

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    • Razzylada
      Razzylada removed this reply because:
      09:27, December 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • "Oh, and by the way, you will never convince me."

      My goal wasn't to convince you specifically, I wanted to see exactly how my analysis stacks up against the general consensus and to see every flaw in my argument for future reference when I argue it to others. Unfortunately, you're the only person who has replied thus far, and you have a pretty strong opinion. 

      "PR isn't a physical space. Not at all. Even the wiki call the real world a "physical world", to make the difference between PR which isn't physical, but only a representation of Paths."

      1. The wiki isn't canon. It's just a group of outsiders like me and you who look at the canon material and sort out the media to form discussion. 2. This is debunked in a detail that I am not allowed to reference as of now in chapter 124.

      "I already knew it was a fixed timeline, loo...oong before chapter 121. I already knew the concept of fixed timeline since I was a kid, with HP. So, it's my opinion."

      Everyone is entitled to an opinion, as long as you admit it's subjective. I have an opinion too, I can just back it up with manga & anime material. No shade for using a redditor's post, but it's not canon.

      "About the souls, well even the wiki says-"

      Again, this wiki is not canon. I shouldn't have to explain this.

      "And I don't know why you talk about Eren Kruger, I never mentionned him in the first place."

      I can't go back and factcheck this, since your replies got deleted somehow.

      "So, anyway, the conclusion is that Eren changing the past is impossible, therefore your theory is wrong."

      Circular argument. I'm wrong, therefore I'm wrong? That's not very logical.

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    • Razzylada
      Razzylada removed this reply because:
      09:26, December 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • @Razzylada, stop removing replies please. If you would like to concede, then just say so, so that others reading would see misconceptions before attempting to argue.

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    • Unless anyone else wants to claim that the Paths Realm scales 6 min/1 year in real time, I'm reaching the conclusion that the PR is a true void that transcends time and space, which Eren Yeager uses to reach immeasurable speeds.

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    • To answer ur question simply, people took the time travel thing way too literally.  All that chp proved is that the attack titan can see the future, not that he can manipulate the past. The past manipulation thing was just a theory on Zeke's part, and mind you, he is still stuck in his belief that his father is evil, so he honestly thought Grisha was a monster for what he did to the Reiss family, but Eren proved otherwise. 

      Also, PATHS is a separate timeless dimension. It doesn't make sense to manipulate time from there.  It's a separate dimension for shifters to communicate in their own time but in that dimension only.  What Grisha said to Zeke there didn't also happen in the past.  Also, what Eren said to Grisha there was merely symbolic, meant for Zeke more than Grisha. Sure Grisha did what he did ultimately cuz he seen something from the future, but not from Eren's exact words there, as Eren can't directly manipulate the past. Ultimately, don't you think if he could change the past like how ur asking, he would've already?

      Piece of advice: Forget about time travel here. Many made the mistake of thinking time travel was a thing here, and that Eren has that ability, but he doesn't, and people honestly thought he is solely responsible for the Reiss murder, but that would make him the same for Grisha's death, as in he made Grisha inject young Eren with the serum and let himself be eaten. That makes sense? No it doesn't.

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    • Attackcjc wrote:

      Ultimately, don't you think if he could change the past like how ur asking, he would've already?

      That's what Armin said about de-titanizing Eldians, but it's heavily implied that Eren isn't being negligent, but that this is all a part of one big plan. 

      Simply put, Eren isn't changing the past because this timeline is his desired outcome. Think Dr. Strange, he looked at millions of different timelines, but they only "win" one. Don't you think that if they were in the wrong timeline, Dr. Strange would have done something about it? It's clear they were already in the right timeline, as they end up losing the battle on Titan, but humanity wins in the long run as they are united when they win the final battle on Earth. Eren is doing the same thing here. He could detitanize eldians, but then they would be defensless from the rest of the world. He could straight up change history, but without any history to reflect on it's only bound to happen again. This is the only timeline in which everything turns out the way Eren wants.

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    • Attackcjc wrote:
      To answer ur question simply, people took the time travel thing way too literally.  All that chp proved is that the attack titan can see the future, not that he can manipulate the past. The past manipulation thing was just a theory on Zeke's part

      Why would Isayama have arguably the most knowlegable character in the series be wrong about such a huge implication? He is consistently right about these sort of things, it would be illogical to just dismiss a "theory" from someone of his caliber. It's almost as if Isayama himself confirmed it via the canon. If your argument is that Zeke/Isayama is contradicting himself, provide a scan/quote where they state otherwise.

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    • Attackcjc wrote:
       

      Also, PATHS is a separate timeless dimension. It doesn't make sense to manipulate time from there.  It's a separate dimension for shifters to communicate in their own time but in that dimension only.  What Grisha said to Zeke there didn't also happen in the past.  Also, what Eren said to Grisha there was merely symbolic, meant for Zeke more than Grisha. Sure Grisha did what he did ultimately cuz he seen something from the future, but not from Eren's exact words there, as Eren can't directly manipulate the past.

      In chapter 123 & 124, Eren uses his ability to speak to all Eldians simultaneously. That alone debunks the notion that Eren speaking to Grisha is merely symbolic.

      It's also been proven that the Paths Realm is physical, too. Annie's father dropped his groceries and his cane in the PR, and when he was sent back to his original location, they are missing. 
      Disappearing

      Notice the objects mere inches away from him

      Disappearing2

      Now where did his groceries go? And how does he plan on playing golf now?

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    • people honestly thought he is solely responsible for the Reiss murder, but that would make him the same for Grisha's death, as in he made Grisha inject young Eren with the serum and let himself be eaten. That makes sense? No it doesn't.

      You're moving goalposts here. Eren motivating his father to kill the Reiss family isn't a slippery slope that means Eren made Grisha inject him with the serum, I never argued that.

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    • One thing that I would like to note is that both sides of this time travel argument is all just speculation. Time travel does not exist in the real world, nobody of credibility is arguing this fact. In fiction, however, it's all fair game. I see biases on both sides of this argument, with my side's bias being that Eren subjectively travelled through time, and the other side's bias is that people like Razzylada(who ended up conceding/deleting his posts in this thread) are afraid of time travel ruining a good story and RuneLai is a big fan of fixed timelines. 

      Neither one of us should present anything other than the established objective facts as true. I can say that Zeke stated Eren's titan transcends time, but I probably shouldn't say that Eren definitively has or hasn't achieved immeasurable speed until the series is over, or it becomes an established fact through Isayama's statements. Until then, I will be arguing for the side that Eren can time travel.

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    • Further evidence they physically were in the moment: Grisha Yeager's arm is supported by Zeke's shoulder.

      WrapAround
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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:

      Ultimately, don't you think if he could change the past like how ur asking, he would've already?

      That's what Armin said about de-titanizing Eldians, but it's heavily implied that Eren isn't being negligent, but that this is all a part of one big plan. 

      Simply put, Eren isn't changing the past because this timeline is his desired outcome. Think Dr. Strange, he looked at millions of different timelines, but they only "win" one. Don't you think that if they were in the wrong timeline, Dr. Strange would have done something about it? It's clear they were already in the right timeline, as they end up losing the battle on Titan, but humanity wins in the long run as they are united when they win the final battle on Earth. Eren is doing the same thing here. He could detitanize eldians, but then they would be defensless from the rest of the world. He could straight up change history, but without any history to reflect on it's only bound to happen again. This is the only timeline in which everything turns out the way Eren wants.

      Right now, the theory behind why he didn't de-titanize them is because he can't since they're made from Zeke's spinal fluid.  But I get the Dr Strange reference.

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:
      To answer ur question simply, people took the time travel thing way too literally.  All that chp proved is that the attack titan can see the future, not that he can manipulate the past. The past manipulation thing was just a theory on Zeke's part
      Why would Isayama have arguably the most knowlegable character in the series be wrong about such a huge implication? He is consistently right about these sort of things, it would be illogical to just dismiss a "theory" from someone of his caliber. It's almost as if Isayama himself confirmed it via the canon. If your argument is that Zeke/Isayama is contradicting himself, provide a scan/quote where they state otherwise.

      Well he had characters like Armin be wrong about stuff before, and Zeke ended up being wrong about stuff too.  I get what ur saying, but keep in mind, Eren and Zeke were playing heavy mind games over how "monstrous" their father is.  For the most part, Eren was winning, and Zeke wasn't faltering from his original beliefs, so by the end, he was shell shocked by it all.  I'm not saying he's definitely wrong at this point, but it is a good 50/50.

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:
       

      Also, PATHS is a separate timeless dimension. It doesn't make sense to manipulate time from there.  It's a separate dimension for shifters to communicate in their own time but in that dimension only.  What Grisha said to Zeke there didn't also happen in the past.  Also, what Eren said to Grisha there was merely symbolic, meant for Zeke more than Grisha. Sure Grisha did what he did ultimately cuz he seen something from the future, but not from Eren's exact words there, as Eren can't directly manipulate the past.

      In chapter 123 & 124, Eren uses his ability to speak to all Eldians simultaneously. That alone debunks the notion that Eren speaking to Grisha is merely symbolic. It's also been proven that the Paths Realm is physical, too. Annie's father dropped his groceries and his cane in the PR, and when he was sent back to his original location, they are missing. 
      Disappearing

      Notice the objects mere inches away from him

      Disappearing2

      Now where did his groceries go? And how does he plan on playing golf now?

      But in that case, Eren was speaking to them in the present, whereas the case from Grisha was 9 years ago.  But I agree on everything else you said.

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:

      people honestly thought he is solely responsible for the Reiss murder, but that would make him the same for Grisha's death, as in he made Grisha inject young Eren with the serum and let himself be eaten. That makes sense? No it doesn't.

      You're moving goalposts here. Eren motivating his father to kill the Reiss family isn't a slippery slope that means Eren made Grisha inject him with the serum, I never argued that.

      Sorry about that, I just added that here cuz other people who think along the lines you are also concluded that. But yeah, needless to say that doesn't make sense, no matter how "deep" it may sound lol

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      One thing that I would like to note is that both sides of this time travel argument is all just speculation. Time travel does not exist in the real world, nobody of credibility is arguing this fact. In fiction, however, it's all fair game. I see biases on both sides of this argument, with my side's bias being that Eren subjectively travelled through time, and the other side's bias is that people like Razzylada(who ended up conceding/deleting his posts in this thread) are afraid of time travel ruining a good story and RuneLai is a big fan of fixed timelines. 

      Neither one of us should present anything other than the established objective facts as true. I can say that Zeke stated Eren's titan transcends time, but I probably shouldn't say that Eren definitively has or hasn't achieved immeasurable speed until the series is over, or it becomes an established fact through Isayama's statements. Until then, I will be arguing for the side that Eren can time travel.

      Well said! This chapter did bring up alot of confusing aspects to wrap our heads around. I hope we do get more info in the future and/or this is handled better in the anime.  But speaking of those other posters, I remember someone bringing up a similar case in Game of Thrones, where there appeared to be "time travel" (exactly like this) but then it turned out not to be the case, just memory viewing or something.  I never watched it so I can't say for myself, but GOT is one of Isayama's recent aspirations so we'll see how things go. Until then, I respect ur opinion here.

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Further evidence they physically were in the moment: Grisha Yeager's arm is supported by Zeke's shoulder.
      WrapAround

      Oh I know they were physically in the moment, but specifically in PATHS. I don't think Grisha did this in real life after he killed the Reiss family.  Truth be told, I'm hoping for a moment like this between Grisha and Eren. That's been overdue imo and now even more so after this chp.  I don't buy that he just wants Eren stopped, especially if this was before Grisha passed down his titan powers to Eren.  That's another thing people take literally (especially after the last 2-3 chps): they just want Eren to be "the villain", but that's another topic for another time lol

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    • Attackcjc wrote:

      Oh I know they were physically in the moment, but specifically in PATHS. I don't think Grisha did this in real life after he killed the Reiss family.

      If everything that happens in the paths stays in the PR(and that it isn't real), can you explain how Eren transported everyone to the paths to send his message?

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    • Attackcjc wrote:

      Well he had characters like Armin be wrong about stuff before, and Zeke ended up being wrong about stuff too.  I get what ur saying, but keep in mind, Eren and Zeke were playing heavy mind games over how "monstrous" their father is.  For the most part, Eren was winning, and Zeke wasn't faltering from his original beliefs, so by the end, he was shell shocked by it all.  I'm not saying he's definitely wrong at this point, but it is a good 50/50.

      Usually, writers will have knowlegeable characters be correct about lore-building information, such as there being an ocean outside of the walls, or that the walls are made of hardened titans. Armin was only ever wrong about whose side Eren was on, and Zeke was only wrong about him being able to successfully carry out the attack on the survey corps without consequence. 

      When these sort of errors occur, they're usually because a lack of further information, and not because of incompetence. In the case of time travel, we don't actually NEED Zeke's statement; we have other supporting information to back this up, but an in-canon statement is even further evidence.

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    • Attackcjc wrote:

      Right now, the theory behind why he didn't de-titanize them is because he can't since they're made from Zeke's spinal fluid.

      Eren was able to control the titans surrounding him from Dina's titan. That sure wasn't Eren's spinal fluid. Also, don't forget that Zeke doesn't have royal authority over Ymir anymore.

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    • For those claiming Grisha only sees Eren because of passive memories, why didn't the Reiss family see him? It's more than likely that Eren & Zeke had selective invisibility and/or intangibility, making it so that only Grisha could see & touch them.

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:

      Oh I know they were physically in the moment, but specifically in PATHS. I don't think Grisha did this in real life after he killed the Reiss family.

      If everything that happens in the paths stays in the PR(and that it isn't real), can you explain how Eren transported everyone to the paths to send his message?

      That sounds like a different case tho since it was a message in the present, not viewing the past

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:

      Well he had characters like Armin be wrong about stuff before, and Zeke ended up being wrong about stuff too.  I get what ur saying, but keep in mind, Eren and Zeke were playing heavy mind games over how "monstrous" their father is.  For the most part, Eren was winning, and Zeke wasn't faltering from his original beliefs, so by the end, he was shell shocked by it all.  I'm not saying he's definitely wrong at this point, but it is a good 50/50.

      Usually, writers will have knowlegeable characters be correct about lore-building information, such as there being an ocean outside of the walls, or that the walls are made of hardened titans. Armin was only ever wrong about whose side Eren was on, and Zeke was only wrong about him being able to successfully carry out the attack on the survey corps without consequence. 

      When these sort of errors occur, they're usually because a lack of further information, and not because of incompetence. In the case of time travel, we don't actually NEED Zeke's statement; we have other supporting information to back this up, but an in-canon statement is even further evidence.

      This could go both ways but I get ur point.

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:

      Right now, the theory behind why he didn't de-titanize them is because he can't since they're made from Zeke's spinal fluid.

      Eren was able to control the titans surrounding him from Dina's titan. That sure wasn't Eren's spinal fluid. Also, don't forget that Zeke doesn't have royal authority over Ymir anymore.

      But those titans weren't made from Zeke's spinal fluid. Zeke doesn't need royal authority to control the titans he made from the tainted wine.

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    • Attackcjc wrote:
      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:

      Right now, the theory behind why he didn't de-titanize them is because he can't since they're made from Zeke's spinal fluid.

      Eren was able to control the titans surrounding him from Dina's titan. That sure wasn't Eren's spinal fluid. Also, don't forget that Zeke doesn't have royal authority over Ymir anymore.
      But those titans weren't made from Zeke's spinal fluid. Zeke doesn't need royal authority to control the titans he made from the tainted wine.

      Can you provide a source for this claim? Every person to ever command a titan has had royal authority, and Zeke has always had royal blood. Unless you have evidence of a person without royal assistence to control a titan, I will count this as ignorance, as there is no other reason to assume this.

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    • Attackcjc wrote:
      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:

      Oh I know they were physically in the moment, but specifically in PATHS. I don't think Grisha did this in real life after he killed the Reiss family.

      If everything that happens in the paths stays in the PR(and that it isn't real), can you explain how Eren transported everyone to the paths to send his message?
      That sounds like a different case tho since it was a message in the present, not viewing the past

      Eren sent his father a message to the past from the present. Unrelated, "To you, from 2,000 years ago" implies the ability of sending messages to the future as well, but this is redundant, as people have been sending messages to the future since the beginning of time via... speaking. And letters.

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:
      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:

      Right now, the theory behind why he didn't de-titanize them is because he can't since they're made from Zeke's spinal fluid.

      Eren was able to control the titans surrounding him from Dina's titan. That sure wasn't Eren's spinal fluid. Also, don't forget that Zeke doesn't have royal authority over Ymir anymore.
      But those titans weren't made from Zeke's spinal fluid. Zeke doesn't need royal authority to control the titans he made from the tainted wine.
      Can you provide a source for this claim? Every person to ever command a titan has had royal authority, and Zeke has always had royal blood. Unless you have evidence of a person without royal assistence to control a titan, I will count this as ignorance, as there is no other reason to assume this.

      Well not every titan is made from Zeke's spinal fluid. Those titans weren't hence how Eren controlled them after touching Dina.  The titans now in chp 124, those were made from Zeke's fluid so that's the prevailing theory on why Eren didn't change them back.  Mind you, with his spinal fluid, Zeke made titans do things that were very uncharacteristic of them, like moving at night.  Look its just a theory at this point that many share, and its more or less been teased by Armin too, considering he said twice that Eren has no control over them. Remember what you said about characters that smart?

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:
      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:

      Oh I know they were physically in the moment, but specifically in PATHS. I don't think Grisha did this in real life after he killed the Reiss family.

      If everything that happens in the paths stays in the PR(and that it isn't real), can you explain how Eren transported everyone to the paths to send his message?
      That sounds like a different case tho since it was a message in the present, not viewing the past
      Eren sent his father a message to the past from the present. Unrelated, "To you, from 2,000 years ago" implies the ability of sending messages to the future as well, but this is redundant, as people have been sending messages to the future since the beginning of time via... speaking. And letters.

      Well that title is the flipside of the pilot, which was about humaity getting a grim reminder of the 2,000 year old danger.  Its about someone getting a message, I agree. In chp 122, Ymir herself got the message from Eren, that she isn't a god, but a human being who can be free.  Also, I respect ur theories, but its looking more like Grisha just sees the future, not Eren sending stuff to the past.  Just like how Eren just sees Grisha's past, Grisha just sees Eren's future.

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    • Attackcjc wrote:

      Well not every titan is made from Zeke's spinal fluid. Those titans weren't hence how Eren controlled them after touching Dina.  The titans now in chp 124, those were made from Zeke's fluid so that's the prevailing theory on why Eren didn't change them back.  Mind you, with his spinal fluid, Zeke made titans do things that were very uncharacteristic of them, like moving at night.  Look its just a theory at this point that many share, and its more or less been teased by Armin too, considering he said twice that Eren has no control over them. Remember what you said about characters that smart?

      I feel like we're straying off topic. The point of this thread is to debate Eren Yeager's immeasurable speed, not whether or not he can control/dissolve Zeke's titans. About quoting knowlegable characters, Armin himself said he didn't know for sure if he could turn titans back to humans, so it wouldn't make sense to quote him right now when he is only speculating.

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    • Attackcjc wrote:

      Well that title is the flipside of the pilot, which was about humaity getting a grim reminder of the 2,000 year old danger.  Its about someone getting a message, I agree. In chp 122, Ymir herself got the message from Eren, that she isn't a god, but a human being who can be free.  Also, I respect ur theories, but its looking more like Grisha just sees the future, not Eren sending stuff to the past.  Just like how Eren just sees Grisha's past, Grisha just sees Eren's future.

      Thanks for the respect. Debating people in this wiki has been very informative, and I can say with confidence that I could argue this with other people outside the SnK Wiki.

      You are entitled to your own opinions, as is everyone else here. We have yet to debunk this theory, so it wouldn't be logical to assume that it's 100% true without an argument. 

      Again, thank you for arguing with me!

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:

      Well not every titan is made from Zeke's spinal fluid. Those titans weren't hence how Eren controlled them after touching Dina.  The titans now in chp 124, those were made from Zeke's fluid so that's the prevailing theory on why Eren didn't change them back.  Mind you, with his spinal fluid, Zeke made titans do things that were very uncharacteristic of them, like moving at night.  Look its just a theory at this point that many share, and its more or less been teased by Armin too, considering he said twice that Eren has no control over them. Remember what you said about characters that smart?

      I feel like we're straying off topic. The point of this thread is to debate Eren Yeager's immeasurable speed, not whether or not he can control/dissolve Zeke's titans. About quoting knowlegable characters, Armin himself said he didn't know for sure if he could turn titans back to humans, so it wouldn't make sense to quote him right now when he is only speculating.

      I know it wasn't the main topic but it was a question that came up so I answered lol but yeah we got to watch for speculations from characters such as Armin and Zeke and not confuse them for factual statements, even tho they turn out the same sometimes lol

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Attackcjc wrote:

      Well that title is the flipside of the pilot, which was about humaity getting a grim reminder of the 2,000 year old danger.  Its about someone getting a message, I agree. In chp 122, Ymir herself got the message from Eren, that she isn't a god, but a human being who can be free.  Also, I respect ur theories, but its looking more like Grisha just sees the future, not Eren sending stuff to the past.  Just like how Eren just sees Grisha's past, Grisha just sees Eren's future.

      Thanks for the respect. Debating people in this wiki has been very informative, and I can say with confidence that I could argue this with other people outside the SnK Wiki.

      You are entitled to your own opinions, as is everyone else here. We have yet to debunk this theory, so it wouldn't be logical to assume that it's 100% true without an argument. 

      Again, thank you for arguing with me!

      No prob! This has been an interesting but confusing topic lately. Its not one I buy into really, but at the same time, I want to wrap my head around it too for the sake of understanding this chapter better.  Hope we get more info on it, and I really hope the anime handles this in a less confusing manner.  I'm also glad, by this series' standards, that we had a civil convo, as there have been many heated debates that never should've happened like Eren being a "villain", or how Reiner "holds back" on Eren in titan combat, etc. But I hope you enjoy discussing this with others, and if more info comes out in the future, I'll update this. 

      Have a good one!

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    • I guess I missed out on a heated debate.

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    • Tdfern14 wrote: I guess I missed out on a heated debate.

      Feel free to reignite this by saying “the Titan Realm’s time scales from 1 min : 1 hr in the real world”

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    • I think the smoking gun that disproves your 'Eren and Zeke time travelled' thing is the fact that Grisha can only perceive Zeke when he's in both Eren and Grisha's himself field of vision. Unless you think this is a total coincidence, which I highly doubt.

      When Eren isn't looking at Zeke, Grisha has no window into the future through which to perceive Zeke. He's seeing a superposition of the moment he's currently living through, along with the future memory of Eren while he's observing Grisha's memory of the same moment. Zeke only exists in the latter.

      It's kind of like how both of your eyes are seeing a different perspective to each other, two different images. But your brain makes sense of it by creating a single composite image. For example, your left eye can't see the right side of your nose. In this case Zeke is the right side of your nose, and when Eren isn't looking at him that's the equivalent of having your right eye closed.

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    • TKGriffiths wrote: I think the smoking gun that disproves your 'Eren and Zeke time travelled' thing is the fact that Grisha can only perceive Zeke when he's in both Eren and Grisha's himself field of vision. Unless you think this is a total coincidence, which I highly doubt.

      Yes, I think this is a complete coincidence. Why would Eren not look at what’s happening in front of him? There’s not nearly enough evidence to assume he has to look at Zeke in order for Grisha to see him.

      This is the fallacy of equating with correlation with causation. If the floor in your house were wet, you wouldn’t assume it’s because the house flooded with the mentality that “a flood would make the floor wet, therefore the floor is wet due to a flood.” Same thing applies here, just because Eren is looking at Zeke when Grisha is, doesn’t mean that’s the sole reason he is visible, let alone tangible. You’re allowed to be optimistic for your own fan speculation, but that doesn’t mean it’s the absolute solution if it makes more assumptions than what is shown. This is called Occam’s razor, where the most plausible answer is the one with the least amount of assumptions.

      Simply put, this theory gives too much credit to Isayama. It assumes he would include such meticulous limitations for something as straightforward as going back in time to meet your father, but wouldn’t outright state or imply such.

      This reminds me of when the community thought the Eren who got shot was a clone body. It relied on unsubstantial evidence that leads to a conclusion that not only complicates Eren’s powers, but the story of AoT, given that it would be a massive ass pull on us, the readers. Now this theory implies that he can’t interact with the past if he is blinded. Which is ridiculous for the reasons above.

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:

      This is called Occam’s razor, where the most plausible answer is the one with the least amount of assumptions.

      Your assumption is that there's physical time travel, invisibility, intangibility, all these insane superpowers that have never been remotely hinted at in the series. 'Massive ass pulls' as you put it. It's my theory that is in fact the simplest and conforms with Occam's Razor.

      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:

      Simply put, this theory gives too much credit to Isayama.

      I think you're giving yourself too much credit and Isayama too little.

      Why do you think it was repeatedly stated that they're only exploring a memory? Why do you think it was repeatedly stated that the Attack Titan's power is limited specifically to seeing future Attack Titans' memories? Why do you think Eren interacting with Grisha was such a surprise to Zeke? Because he knows that they're only viewing a memory and that it should be absolutely impossible for anything they do to interact with the events in the memory, yet that's what happens.

      I mean Isayama's doing everything he can to present this idea to you on a silver platter but you still missed it. The chapter is literally called 'Memories of the Future'.

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    • TKGriffiths wrote: Your assumption is that there's physical time travel, invisibility, intangibility, all these insane superpowers that have never been remotely hinted at in the series. 'Massive ass pulls' as you put it. It's my theory that is in fact the simplest and conforms with Occam's Razor.

      Physical time travel and invisibility is the definitive of what happened in the manga. They observed Grisha without anybody detecting them(invisibility) and they went back in time to do so(time travel). Now, intangibility is something that the community came up with, some saying that Grisha is only pretending to hug Zeke. This is ridiculous, as he is hanging his arm on Zeke’s shoulder. This by itself has yet to be proven, but there is an argument to be made that Ymir passed through Eren Yeager’s body.

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    • Why do you think it was repeatedly stated that they're only exploring a memory? Why do you think it was repeatedly stated that the Attack Titan's power is limited specifically to seeing future Attack Titans' memories? Why do you think Eren interacting with Grisha was such a surprise to Zeke? Because he knows that they're only viewing a memory and that it should be absolutely impossible for anything they do to interact with the events in the memory, yet that's what happens.

      You just made this grandiose paragraph just to concede at the end lol, but I’m glad we found some middle ground

      You said that it should be “absolutely impossible for anything they do to interact with the events in the memory,” which I agree with because it means two things:

      1. This is still a memory, and Eren Yeager has a hidden power never implied before that allows him to simulate Grisha’s possible reactions to interactions, and the ability to emulate the sense of touch to convince Zeke that they’re actually hugging, all so that he can create the illusion that they interacted with a memory.

      2. It’s not a memory. They travelled back in time using the stated time transcending powers of the Attack Titan.

      The second option called in line with logical reasoning and the reality of the situation. If you can’t imteract with a memory, then it’s not a memory, and you start from there. You don’t ignore logic and continue with your debunked preconceived notion that they’re still in a memory.

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    • Also to clarify, it was never stated the Attack Titan is only able to see future memories, that was literally debunked twice when Eren saw his dad AND Ymir’s memories. And the point of Zeke stating that it’s “just a memory” before it’s shown that it’s not is called basic storytelling: divert the reader’s attention away from making a conclusion until the implication is made. It would be bad writing to say “hey Zeke, these aren’t just memories, I’ll demonstrate it in a bit,” because it doesn’t build awe.

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    • I have no idea how you've brainwashed yourself this hard. You still completely ignore the fact that THE CHARACTERS THEMSELVES REPEATEDLY STATE THAT THEY'RE MERELY OBSERVING A MEMORY. This by itself blows absolutely everything you've said out of the water, but I'll continue anyway because it seems you need a little more help to accept this basic fact.

      I said 'Because he knows that they're only viewing a memory and that it should be absolutely impossible for anything they do to interact with the events in the memory, yet that's what happens.' Let me clarify since you don't understand the situation.

      Zeke clearly knows that they're viewing a memory. The characters themselves repeatedly state this, ZEKE HIMSELF IS THE ONE THAT BROUGHT THEM INTO THE MEMORY WITH THE POWER OF THE FOUNDER, it's beyond dispute. As far as Zeke is concerned there should be no way for him or Eren to interact with the events that happen in said memory, since he's completely unaware of the Attack Titan's power to see future memories and thus that Grisha has a window into future events. Thus Zeke had no idea that Grisha's actions in the memory were based on his knowledge of future events (the future event being Zeke's present action of viewing the memory with Eren). This is the 'interaction' I'm talking about.

      And again just to clarify, no he's not physically hugging Zeke because ZEKE ISN'T THERE. Again you believe your 'intangibility, invisibility, physical time travel' explanation is simpler than 'it's repeatedly hammered into the reader's brain by the author that it's a memory so Zeke obviously can't physically be there' which is totally absurd.

      If you're still indoctrinated by your insane theory then I'll just have to start posting the actual dialogue from the manga and see how you try to doublethink your way out of the hole you've dug for yourself.

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    • Calm down bud, it’s just a manga lmao, calling me indoctrinated and shit, damn

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    • I’ve already provided scans and statements that imply or outright state that the Paths Realm is a physical space that transcends ours, and that Grisha is touching Zeke, but let’s use Occam’s razor again. Tell me which is simpler.

      1. Grisha is pretending to hug Zeke, and Zeke is pretending to feel him

      2. Grisha and Zeke hugged.

      If you can’t tell, it’s much simpler and safer to assume they actually touched, and that’s without the manga panels that outright show this.

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Also to clarify, it was never stated the Attack Titan is only able to see future memories.

      Grisha: The Attack Titan is capable of seeing into the memories of its future inheritors.

      Try again.


      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      that was literally debunked twice when Eren saw his dad AND Ymir’s memories.

      Seeing Ymir and Grisha's memories has nothing to do with the power of the Attack Titan. The power to see a previous inheritor's memories is an ability every titan shifter has.

      Try again.

      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      And the point of Zeke stating that it’s “just a memory” before it’s shown that it’s not is called basic storytelling: divert the reader’s attention away from making a conclusion until the implication is made. It would be bad writing to say “hey Zeke, these aren’t just memories, I’ll demonstrate it in a bit,” because it doesn’t build awe.

      Eren (after they're out of the memory): The path ahead of me was only made possible by you bringing me into our old man's memories

      Try again.

      Grasping at straws, you love to see it. Everything that opposes your theory is the author deliberately lying to divert everyone away from the hidden meaning that you believe you alone are able to perceive..........lol.

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    • If you were to read, I used the word only in that first quote you used. I was implying that they can see both the future and the past, but I guess I expected too much when I assumed you wouldn’t twist my words.

      Also, that last point you made is a major straw man. I didn’t say that Isayama is lying to us, the reader. If you read the quote you just posted, I said Isayama is steering the reader away from it, and then introduce the big reveal immediately after, which he did.

      As for your claim that I alone believe this theory, you are heavily mistaken. I have presented this idea numerous times to other communities, and this happens to be the only one that disagreed until the very end. In fact, I linked this very thread as a source for my arguments, and nobody opposes it, and some are even awaiting the end of the series in order to add these feats to the character page.

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    • It’s simple ABC logic that somehow went over your head. If a concept you believe is established is contradicted, then you cannot logically assume the concept is still valid, and you should find a new hypothesis to explain it.

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    • They're not pretending to hug, Grisha is trying to hug him but he cannot since what he's seeing is someone else's memory. It'd be like trying to hug a ghost. Your idea that Grisha is resting his weight on Zeke and would fall to the ground or something if he was intangible is just pure conjecture. There is no evidence that they're touching.

      Eren and Zeke aren't even physically there IN THE PRESENT. That's just the representation of them within the paths. Grisha isn't in the paths. Eren is a severed head and Zeke had half of his torso blown off. What's your idea, that the head and Zeke teleported to the past, grew new bodies with new hairstyles and clothes, then teleported back to the present again and reverted into a severed head and a blown up torso?

      There is no 'big reveal after'. As I said Eren and Zeke talk about just having been within Grisha's memory AFTER THEY'VE FINISHED EXPLORING THE MEMORY AND AFTER YOUR SUPPOSED PHYSICAL HUG HAS HAPPENED. You think they're keeping up the pretense of it being a memory even after your supposed reveal has happened? lol

      I don't care what shills have lapped up your nonsense outside this thread, you're clearly in some kind of echo chamber of fellow readers who haven't understood what's happening.

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    • TKGriffiths wrote: They're not pretending to hug, Grisha is trying to hug him but he cannot since what he's seeing is someone else's memory. It'd be like trying to hug a ghost. Your idea that Grisha is resting his weight on Zeke and would fall to the ground or something if he was intangible is just pure conjecture. There is no evidence that they're touching.

      Wow, you just contradicted yourself twice.

      If there’s no evidence of them touching, how are they not pretending to hug? Either they are pretending and Zeke is intangible, or Grisha did touch Zeke, and therefore cannot pretend. It never fails to amuse me how much non-sequiturs are used in order to downplay Eren.

      As for the second contradiction, how is the inability to rest on an intangible concept “pure conjecture?” Although I never said Grisha would fall to the ground, if Zeke was truly intangible, then Grisha would walk through him, or his arm would go through him. Are you implying that they should be able to hug, and that you can hug a ghost?

      So far I’ve been the only one here posting evidence for my claims. Now it’s your turn. Find evidence that Grisha didn’t touch Zeke, or that he’s pretending to.

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    • The evidence is that all the characters involved repeatedly state that it's a memory, and you can't touch other people's memories. I said Grisha's not pretending to hug Zeke because he's earnest in his attempt. He doesn't walk up to the apparition with the intention of holding his arms in a way to fool Eren that he's touching it. He's doing it because he's desperate to feel close to the son that he abandoned and show him affection before he dies, and this is as much as he can do. Flapping his arms through Zeke like Kylo Ren sticking his lightsaber through Luke would be a ridiculous thing to do and would totally ruin the emotional impact of the scene. Everyone present, and every reader that's paying attention, is already fully aware that it's just a memory.

      The absence of evidence contradicting your insane theory is not permissible as evidence in favour of it. That's Russell's teapot.

      The author doesn't depict Grisha falling through Zeke because he's already made it extremely clear that he's merely viewing a memory. Every character involved in the scene repeatedly states that it's only a memory, before and after the fact.

      It's extraordinary claims that require extraordinary evidence. Your claim of physical time travel, intangibility, invisibility is the extraordinary one because it contradicts everything that we're seeing and everything that the characters are saying. The claim that it's a memory and obviously nobody is touching each other is mundane and obvious, it's the default position.

      I haven't even mentioned the gigantic plot holes that are apparent to anyone who's given this a moment's thought. If Grisha (the founding titan) was able to touch Zeke (a titan of royal blood), don't you think he would have done something about the titans attacking Shiganshina? You know, the very reason he went there to acquire the founder in the first place? Or failing that, perhaps use his asspull physical time travel powers that you also believe Grisha posesses?

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    • Oh and since I didn't clarify, you can of course make the case that Zeke might be able to feel Grisha within the memory world. Eren and Zeke don't fall through the ground in the memory, they're shown leaning on parts of the scenery, and opening 'doors' to move from one memory to another. (Which obviously weren't there in reality when the memories actually happened, much like Eren and Zeke aren't really there)

      So while Zeke might be experiencing the sensation of Grisha touching him (just like he's presumably experiencing the sensation of solid ground beneath his feet etc), Grisha himself can't. He can only experience the things Eren is experiencing (the visual and audio); Eren isn't hugging Zeke.

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    • TKGriffiths wrote:

      The evidence is that all the characters involved repeatedly state that it's a memory, and you can't touch other people's memories. I said Grisha's not pretending to hug Zeke because he's earnest in his attempt. He doesn't walk up to the apparition with the intention of holding his arms in a way to fool Eren that he's touching it. He's doing it because he's desperate to feel close to the son that he abandoned and show him affection before he dies, and this is as much as he can do...

      Everyone present, and every reader that's paying attention, is already fully aware that it's just a memory.

      Nice try attempting to appeal to emotion, when the only person who isn't paying attention is you.

      If it's just a memory, then why doesn't Zeke treat it as such? Just look at all of his reactions, from comfort when he's hugged to sheer panic when they come back to the sandy Paths. He's so shocked at the fact that Grisha can even see him, let alone touch and hug him that he makes the reactionary decision to attempt his plan immediately. If it's true that Grisha can't touch Zeke, how does Zeke feel the warmth of Grisha when he makes the "genuine attempt" to give him affection?

      Your argument falls apart just by simply thinking about it. If it's Grisha that can't feel Zeke, why wouldn't Isayama illustrate this, or have him state as such to avoid confusion? Even the wiki says Grisha "embraced" Zeke, with no implication that he's faking it. If it's Zeke that can't feel anything, what reason would he have to believe Eren can do anything more than simply view memories?

      This alone complicates your argument to the point that it hangs on BS that hangs onto nothing implied by Isayama, but I'll go ahead and respond to the rest of your abysmal points just to further dismantle it.

      TKGriffiths wrote: ...This is as much as he can do. Flapping his arms through Zeke like Kylo Ren sticking his lightsaber through Luke would be a ridiculous thing to do and would totally ruin the emotional impact of the scene.

      Completely illogical. You're making the grand assumption that, instead of showing that they cannot physically touch in some way(I.E. walking through, a statement by Grisha, or, you know, NOT illustrating them HUGGING in the first place), Isayama makes the stupid decision to make them hug for cheap emotional points, implying that someone is pathologically tricking the other, and it doesn't have to be Eren. 

      TKGriffiths wrote: The absence of evidence contradicting your insane theory is not permissible as evidence in favour of it. That's Russell's teapot.

      The author doesn't depict Grisha falling through Zeke because he's already made it extremely clear that he's merely viewing a memory. Every character involved in the scene repeatedly states that it's only a memory, before and after the fact.

      You're ignoring that maybe, just maybe it's a figure of speech. It's a non-sequitor to say you can alter history by interacting with the memories convenient to the user, as memories aren't tangible, and Eren and Zeke interacted with the events visited. 

      I'm not putting the burden of proof on anybody but myself, as I have already listed a multitude of evidence to support my "insane" theory. What you have done is ignored the evidence, and instead proposed your own easily-debunkable theory to counter mine without listing any evidence to support it, which means you're committing the same fallacies you accuse me of, except I don't rely on them to debunk it.

      TKGriffiths wrote: It's extraordinary claims that require extraordinary evidence. Your claim of physical time travel, intangibility, invisibility is the extraordinary one because it contradicts everything that we're seeing and everything that the characters are saying. The claim that it's a memory and obviously nobody is touching each other is mundane and obvious, it's the default position.

      Once again, you are taking their words by their absolute literal meaning without going any deeper. This series is already extraordinary on its own being a fantasy series; it's not an extraordinary claim given that it has already literally and figuratively both shown and told us that they physically time travelled. You already believe Zeke is intangible to Grisha, but you somehow take the extra leap in logic to say it's because they're not actually there. They are also quite literally invisible to the Reiss family, but feel free to argue that they ignored/pretended not to see Eren behind Grisha.

      TKGriffiths wrote: I haven't even mentioned the gigantic plot holes that are apparent to anyone who's given this a moment's thought. If Grisha (the founding titan) was able to touch Zeke (a titan of royal blood), don't you think he would have done something about the titans attacking Shiganshina? You know, the very reason he went there to acquire the founder in the first place? Or failing that, perhaps use his asspull physical time travel powers that you also believe Grisha posesses?

      This is only a plot hole if you're neglect the fact that he foresaw this attack before meeting the Reiss family. Let's say he didn't, and he found out about it by touching Freida or Zeke, it's long too late for prevention, as it's nighttime and the attacks happened immediately after his departure in the daytime. The last thing to do is to let Eren eat him.

      Also, only Eren and Zeke have time travel capabilities, as it's a royal ability. Zeke was already in a different state of mind after being embraced by his father, and he was cut off from Grisha before any sort of rational planning could have been made to let him into the Paths Realm.

      TKGriffiths wrote:

      Oh and since I didn't clarify, you can of course make the case that Zeke might be able to feel Grisha within the memory world. Eren and Zeke don't fall through the ground in the memory, they're shown leaning on parts of the scenery, and opening 'doors' to move from one memory to another. (Which obviously weren't there in reality when the memories actually happened, much like Eren and Zeke aren't really there)

      I'm gonna ignore your "doors don't exist in buildings" argument because it's redundant. The fact they can lean on or interact with any non-living scenery is proof enough that the paths realm is physical. This is even supported in recent chapters when inanimate objects like Mr. Leonhart's cane is transported into the paths realm, as he drops it in the sand and it is found missing when he is returned to earth. 

      But ignoring ALL of that, I'm glad you decided on which person out of Grisha v Zeke can feel each other. You have confirmed your stance; only Zeke can feel. I've already raised my question, but I'll say it again. Why would Isayama illustrate Grisha hugging Zeke if he never intended for them to touch? Why would he be illustrated with tears of joy if he couldn't even feel him? If only Zeke can feel, what would happen if Grisha squeezed until there was no gap beteen his arms and his chest? Would that be a durability-ignoring lethal blow?

      With all these contradictions, leaps in logic, fallacies and fact ignoring agruments your hypothesis relies on, your assessment is less than headcanon in regards to plausibility, at least headcanon fills in the gaps untouched by the author. Your argument however completely contradicts what is shown without any reliable evidence to back it up.​​​​​​

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    • Thank you for attending my Ted Talk.

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    • MilesTheMorales1 wrote:

      If it's just a memory, then why doesn't Zeke treat it as such?

      He does treat it as such. As does Eren. As does Grisha. Here are some more quotes for you to ignore. This is after they've come out of the memory.

      Zeke: If what I saw in your memories was true....he knew that he wouldn't be able to use the power of the founder himself, even if he took it.

      Eren: Thank you Zeke. The path ahead of me was only made possible by you bringing me into our old man's memories.

      The fact that you continue to resist the obvious truth being repeatedly slammed in your face is amazing. The characters are straight up saying exactly what happened in plain language and you're ignoring them. They're not talking in riddles, you're just pretending everything is some convoluted allegory because you don't want to accept the truth. You've invested so much time into your theory that you're too embarrassed to admit that you missed what most people saw straight away during their first read of the chapter.

      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      Just look at all of his reactions, from comfort when he's hugged to sheer panic when they come back to the sandy Paths. He's so shocked at the fact that Grisha can even see him, let alone touch and hug him that he makes the reactionary decision to attempt his plan immediately.

      Zeke reacts this way because he realizes that he's just been played by Eren and doesn't have control of the situation like he thought he did. Grisha has literally just demonstrated that he can accurately see the future because of the Attack Titan. Then Grisha told Zeke that his plan is going to fail and begged him to stop Eren due to something horrific he saw in Eren's future memories. He now knows Eren has that same power and could well have forseen everything he's been doing and planning all along. And has only been co-operating because it was leading to Eren's desired outcome rather than his own. Of course he's panicking.

      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:
      How does Zeke feel the warmth of Grisha when he makes the "genuine attempt" to give him affection?

      They don't have to physically touch to show affection. You know how when two people put their hands together on opposite sides of a pane of glass? It's like that. Except Zeke might actually be able to feel something, it's unclear. Grisha obviously can't. When I'm talking about warmth I'm talking about emotional warmth not body heat......

      You're ignoring that maybe, just maybe it's a figure of speech. It's a non-sequitor to say you can alter history by interacting with the memories convenient to the user, as memories aren't tangible, and Eren and Zeke interacted with the events visited. 

      I'm not putting the burden of proof on anybody but myself, as I have already listed a multitude of evidence to support my "insane" theory. What you have done is ignored the evidence, and instead proposed your own easily-debunkable theory to counter mine without listing any evidence to support it, which means you're committing the same fallacies you accuse me of, except I don't rely on them to debunk it.

      It's clearly not a figure of speech. There is no trace of 'maybe' about it. The word 'memory' has never been a metaphor in this series. It's not a code word. It's not a trick. It's just the truth.

      Your theory relies on words meaning whatever you want them to mean rather than what they actually mean. Characters giving false accounts of events they experienced together 5 seconds ago to each other for no reason. The Attack Titan having powers of invisibility and space-time doorways that have never been mentioned or even hinted at.

      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:

      Your argument falls apart just by simply thinking about it. If it's Grisha that can't feel Zeke, why wouldn't Isayama illustrate this, or have him state as such to avoid confusion?

      Isayama does illustrate this. By. Having. The. Characters. Repeatedly. State. That. It. Is. A. Memory.

      It just occurred to me that your confusion might be arising from the fact that it hasn't clicked for you that two versions of this scene happened from two different perspectives. Grisha's POV in the past, and Eren/Zeke's POV in the present. I'll lay it out as detailed as I can, and if you still don't get it I'll give up.

      We've got the scene written from the POV of Eren/Zeke in the present. So we have characters walking around in someone else memory unseen by anyone (except Grisha since only he has the power of the Attack Titan to experience what Eren is experiencing), merely observing and never changing (due to it being SOMEONE ELSE'S MEMORY, they were NOT PRESENT during the events in the memory). The things they do interact with, portals from one memory to the next in the form of doorways, are clearly constructs of the memory world that exist only in the present (much like Zeke and Eren). The portals did not exist in the past for obvious reasons. Yes the DOORS existed in the past but they were not portals between memories due to the fact that the past does not consist of memories. That is, the doors are an example of the difference between Grisha's perspective and Eren/Zeke's.

      As for Grisha's perspective, he is just living through his life normally. No magic memory doors, just doors. The only difference is sporadic periods where he receives a memory from Eren's future POV viewing the events he is currently living through. It would be a strange kind of double vision, the view and sounds of his own senses and simultaneously the view and sounds experienced by Eren. Most of what Eren is seeing and hearing is identical to what Grisha is seeing, with the following exceptions.

      1) The view through Eren's eyes. So Grisha's is experiencing two images from two sets of eyes. Grisha himself is occasionally visible in Eren's POV which would be a creepy sensation for him, leading to him constantly turning around to try to find who's looking at him. Except he can't, because Eren doesn't exist in the past for Grisha to see, and Eren isn't visible to himself in the present for Grisha to see through the future memory.

      Again, most of what he's seeing is an overlap of things he can already see himself. With one exception - the memory world construct of Zeke, which only exists in Eren's POV. (He would be able to see the memory portals that only exist in Eren's POV if he received a memory of Eren looking at one but that never happened).

      2) The sounds Eren is hearing. Again, mostly an overlap of things he can already hear, with two exceptions - Eren's voice, and Zeke's voice. Which only exist in Eren's POV.

      3) The things Eren is touching in the memory world construct. Eren never touches anything notable, he just has his feet on the ground and occasionally leans on scenery. So this doesn't really matter. Eren never touches the memory world construct of Zeke, so Grisha cannot experience that touch either.

      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:

      If it's Zeke that can't feel anything, what reason would he have to believe Eren can do anything more than simply view memories?

      Grisha: The Attack Titan is capable of seeing into the memories of its future inheritors.

      Zeke then witnesses Grisha being influenced into killing the Reiss family in the past by words Eren is saying in the present.

      See, it's pretty easy to follow when you don't make the assumption that every word every character says that doesn't fit your agenda is a lie.

      MilesTheMorales1 wrote:

      You already believe Zeke is intangible to Grisha, but you somehow take the extra leap in logic to say it's because they're not actually there. They are also quite literally invisible to the Reiss family, but feel free to argue that they ignored/pretended not to see Eren behind Grisha.

      Zeke isn't intangible to Grisha. Zeke is NOT THERE. Grisha is in the past, Zeke is in the future. Zeke is exploring Grisha's memory that Eren has inherited. Through the Attack Titan, Grisha can see Zeke through Eren's memory of Eren watching Zeke. THEY'RE NOT IN THE SAME PLACE.

      The same about being invisible to the Reiss family. They're not invisible, they're simply NOT THERE. The Reiss family are in the past, Eren/Zeke are in the future. Eren/Zeke can see the Reiss family because they're exploring Grisha's memory of being with the Reiss family. Through the Attack Titan, the Reiss family can see.....jack shit because none of them possess the Attack Titan. They can only see the things that exist in their own time, which do not include Eren/Zeke.

      I'll continue deconstructing the rest of your post later.

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    • Wow this has become a long debate. But what is it even about? Tl;Dr just give a short answer.

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    • Tdfern14 wrote:
      Wow this has become a long debate. But what is it even about? Tl;Dr just give a short answer.

      He thinks the Attack Titan has the power to teleport through time and space and become invisible, and that Eren physically brought Zeke into the past to watch the events in Grisha's life in real time.

      Rather than what actually happened, which was them both viewing Grisha's memories that Eren has inherited.

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    • The simple premise of this debate is that the paths realm lets the Attack Titan travel through time because it’s been established the PR is a physical plane of existence that transcends ours.

      Everything else after that are misconceptions that I have disproven with evidence, which TKGriffiths here keeps repeating what was argued already.

      I wish I would have answered this sooner, you know, before TK could misrepresent my argument. I’m not solely arguing invisibility, it’s just an implication of what’s possible due to the nature of the paths realm and what it’s demonstrated already.

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    • Contrary to what my many paragraphs might show, I don’t have an abundance in free time, so I’ll have to go through your big post later down the line.

      However, I will tell you how my theory can be disproven without a shadow of a doubt: prove the paths realm isn’t a physical place. It isn’t a negative claim to state that I’m wrong if you can successfully provide an alternative solution with facts and evidence, but that should prove difficult, given the fact that there is proof that the paths are physical.

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    • Ok so now you're trying obfuscate and distance yourself from your theory because you've realized how ridiculous it is when stated in plain language. You do think the Attack Titan can travel through space and time. You do think it has the power to make itself and others invisible.

      If you're going to bring up Mr Leonhart's groceries again I'll just head out now because it's getting pathetic. It's silly because if this hasn't convinced you, nothing will. Even at the end of the manga when you've been shown to be completely wrong, you'll keep pretending the words and images on the page have hidden alternate meanings that only you were capable of understanding.

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    • You’re actually wrong. If it doesn’t end up happening, I won’t consider it canon at all, and I’ll stop arguing it. I’m not the delusional idiot you think I am. Until that happens, I’m gonna keep arguing for it.

      Funny how the Leonhart point is what makes you leave because you know the proof can’t be dismissed. You mention it as if it’s been debunked, but neither you or anyone in this thread has countered it successfully.

      As for your accusation of me trying to distance myself from my own argument, I’ll double down. It’s been stated by Zeke and others that the Attack on Titan transcends time, and the Coordinate/founding Titan has been demonstrated (through Leonhart and common sense; Titan flesh has to come from somewhere) to surpass space itself. Eren and Zeke weren’t visible to anyone besides Grisha, that’s the definition of invisibility.

      I’m gonna trust what Isayama himself is showing vs what your misinterpretation of what’s happening says.

      I won’t consider this a debate win, as both you and Razzylada called it quits early, and, as I’ve said before, it’s not you I’m trying to convince; you’re just a means to test out my argument against the most critical and stubborn so that I can answer to the unbiased intellectuals who can see what’s in front of them.

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    • I'm closing this thread as it stopped being a civil discussion long ago. If anyone wishes to continue the topic in a new thread, you can do so but you have to keep the conversation respectful; else it'll be closed again and further moderation actions can be taken.

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